QuoteAs a matter of interest,where do players born in Northern Ireland stand on qualifying to play for the Republic,given that the Irish constitution declares that everyone who has been,has a right to Irish citizenship?
Rule Britannia : How dare the Welsh "berate anything British". Oh wait - hang on ! This was a Welsh team, not a British one... Seems the other 'home nations' have no issues asserting their own individual identities over the British one when they play representative sports under their own banners. Only our good friends in Northern Ireland appear unable to present a local 'Norn Irish' identity in place of a British one. Possibly because there is no such thing as a Northern Irish identity ? Would Linfield fans get annoyed if they played Newcastle United and the Toon Army felt it more appropriate to sing 'The Blaydon Races' than God Save the Queen...? I suspect they would. Anyhow - if you want to be with fans who will subside their 'national' identites within the uber-British one, may I suggest the Olympics...?Originally Posted by -lamb-
Inclusiveness : Firstly, it is absurd to try to suggest that the Nationalist community, lock stock and barrel, has no interest in supporting Northern Ireland. So your observation falls at the first hurdle. Secondly - it is correct that a substantial number of northern Nationalists support the Republic over the north. But tell me this : why do you think that is so ? Undoubtedly there is a 'political'/cultural angle, and also one of relative levels of success. But something also went very wrong with Northern Irish football in the late 80's and early 90's that drove a lot of nationalists away from supoorting the team. I'm talking about the rabid sectarianism that was evident on the terraces, and that has only recently been suppressed. How dare northern Catholics refuse to support their own national team, when that team's fans were often to be heard singing anti-Catholic chants at games !! I know of middle-class Catholics in Belfast who used to take their kids to Windsor Park in the 80's, until the sectarianism got to them and they stopped. Their kids now travel to watch Republic of Ireland games. Coincidence....?
As for nationalists supposedly going out of their way to NOT support the north - it cuts both ways. As Exhibit A, your honour, I present a Mr N Lennon of Lurgan Co. Armagh. A Nationalist who WANTED to play for his home nation, but was hounded out by terrace cat-calls, culminating in a bullet in the post, because he played club football for a team very closely identified with the Catholic tradition. As Exhibit B, i give you a Mr A Rogan - also turned-on regularly by his own fans at international games. Much, much worse than some spide in a Republic top chucking stones on the Westlink. And you really wonder why nationalists turned their back on the north....? And when faced with a trickle of Nationalist kids declaring for the Republic rather than the North, did the IFA attempt to understand why and tackle the core issues ? No - instead they threw their toys out of the pram and declared to FIFA that the FAI was actively poaching these kids. If Northern Ireland often struggles to get Nationalists to declare for the playing squad, and actively abuses some of those who do, how the hell do you expect it to get Nationalist support on the terraces ?
The simple fact is that, not so long ago, Northern Ireland had the unambiguous support of both sides of the divide in the North. For a variety of reaons - some out of their control, but many within their direct realm of responsibility - the North lost a large part of that support over a period of probably no more than 10 years. There are still Nationalists who do support Norn Iron - but to have this 'feck them, and feck the others if they won't support us' attitude is pathetic for a team that is trying to present itself as inclusive and which must bear a large chunk of the responsibility for many Nationalists no longer supportin it in the first place. If the positive strides made recently off the pitch continue to be combined with stronger performances on it, more Nationalists will slowly be won back to the team. But if you'd rather supporting Norn Iron was a nationalist-free affair (as some undoubtedly do) then fine - look towards kids throwing stones on the Westlink to justify an outcome that the IFA and the Norn Iron fans are largely themselves responsible for. But drop the pretence of 'inclusivessness', and forget about looking for serious grant aid for anything.
Last edited by dcfcsteve; 13/10/2005 at 9:36 AM.
As a matter of interest,where do players born in Northern Ireland stand on qualifying to play for the Republic,given that the Irish constitution declares that everyone who has been,has a right to Irish citizenship?
there are about a half dozen N.I. born players in the ROI's under-age teams.
Would've thought it was fairly straight forward. Anyone born on the island of Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship/a passport under the Constitution. Therefore, anyone born on the island can elect to play for the Republic if they so wish.
steve, i'm not going to explain, excuse or indulge in this further than to say this-
"Firstly, it is absurd to try to suggest that the Nationalist community, lock stock and barrel, has no interest in supporting Northern Ireland." when did i ever say that? in fact i've said the VERY OPPOSITE elsewhere and been shot down (possibly by yourself) for saying it. peer pressure in strongly nationalist areas certainly had an influence. still does.
re: the lennon affair........i'm not biting. a very sad and depressing incident that has passed into history, hopefully never to be repeated.
"How dare the Welsh "berate anything British"." i knew as soon as i posted my comment that the wording wasn't what i had intended to convey. a smilie afterwards may have helped. probably not though.
if you want to come, then come. if people really want northern ireland to have representation from all sides then go, or tell others to go. don't stay away and whine your nuts off about there being hardly any representation from the catholic community. if people cared to any degree they would go regardless and be one of the people who waters down the attitude they complain about. if not then at this stage i don't really care anymore. the opportunity is there if someone wants to go. if they won't take that opportunity then they forfeit their right to voice complaint imo.
(northern ireland fan who is STILL going with friends of both catholic and protestant persuasion)
Last edited by -lamb-; 13/10/2005 at 7:23 PM.
Larne FC for Larne Town. Inver Park for the people.
Not quite straightforward Steve. As Oasis (the Government Info service) says, "Irish citizenship through birth or descent is a complex area...if you were born in Ireland and [my emphasis] your parent(s) were Irish, then you are also an Irish citizen".
On the 1 January 2005 the new Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004 came into effect. Children born on or after the 1 January 2005 of non-national parents are not automatically entitled to Irish citizenship.
They're red, they're black
The hatchetmen are back.
We'll support you evermore
Though you never score...
Fair point Duncan. But in the context of Northerners, they are entitled to an Irish passport assuming one or more parent was also from the island of Ireland (which would be the vast majority of the North).
Lamb - I would happily go to a Norn Iron game at Windsor, just like I go to watch Irish League games of any variety when I'm home (I live in London). For the record - I was a Northern Ireland supporter in the 80's (until Derry City joined the League of Ireland, which influenced my views a lot), and I have also been to seen Northern Ireland play at underage level (not involving the Republic).
But my presence at a Norn Iron full international now would be driven more by curiousity and a love of football, rather than a genuine heartfelt support for the team that supposedly represents the 'nation' where I was born and bred. As I've mentioned previously - I have an issue with a Northern Irish team who's official symbolism, and a large section of its fan-base, explicitly and exclusively assert the symbolism of only one community within the province.
Not feeling comfortable about something doesn't mean you don't care about it. Again, you're blaming Nationalists themselves for their 'stay-away' attitude - rather than acknowledging there is still more to be done to make supporting Northern Ireland a more welcoming and 'neutral' atmosphere (e.g. the anthem).
If the IFA and Northern Irish fans can genuinely hold their hands up and say 'the team belongs to everyone, we've set everything up to reflect that, and there's nothing more we can do now', then I would applaud their actions and ask no more of them. But that period in time is still some way away (though thankfully it does appear to be getting closer). Until such a time, there will always be justifiable reasons for criticising the set-up - regardless of whether one chooses to go to the games or not.
Steve!Are there ANY players who have fallen into this category?I also assume that players who are born in the Irish Republic and who have a parent/grandparent who was born in Northen Ireland,would be eligable to play for BOTH countries,when considering their options!Sorry if the question isn't clear!
Maybe Gregory campbell could answer that question as he has raised something similar in the press just last week.
He wants Unionists living in the ROI to have the right to British passports
my understanding is any british subject can play for any of the home nations.
there was an issue at the time of the racist referendum about the fact that it would supercede the GFA but apparantly anyone living in the north has an entitlement to an irish passport, a british one or both as per the gfa regardless.
I don't think so.
If you are English and your parents are English and their parents are English and so on then I think you'd be stuck with England.
And our entitlement to an Irish passport is alot older than the GFA my good man
Nope Roverstilidie is correct. Anybody with a British passport can play for any of the home nations are per FIFA rules.I don't think so.
If you are English and your parents are English and their parents are English and so on then I think you'd be stuck with England.
And our entitlement to an Irish passport is alot older than the GFA my good man
However in most cases the countries stick to an unwritten rule of only playing players with a connection through parentage or grandparent.
Rememebr NI turned down Alan Kernaghan eventhough his 4 grandparents were born in NI and he lived there from 4 years of age.
NI certainly chased David Johnson in the past and not sure exactly how Lawrie himself qualified to play apart from his British passport.
As I understand it,players are eligable to play for the country of their birth,their parents,or their grandparents birth,as agreed by the four home-based FA's!Players born outside the UK can choose any of the 4 British countries as they hold a UK passport,and are not subject to this agreement!Don't know where this would leave a player born in the Irish Republic who applies for a British passport!
I stand corrected, although i listened to an interview with Ryan Giggs about the whole 'England Schools' thingy and he said that he wasn't eligible to play for England, only their schools team as that's where he went to school.
As for Lawrie. I think one of his parents is from Belfast, and by his surname I'd say it was his mum!!!
Did Northern Ireland turn Alan Kernaghan down,or was it the other way around?
There are a number of Northerners playing for the Republic at under age level at the moment, CB. If any of them make the grade, they'll progress into the full Republic squad at some point.
For example - Derryman and Derry City player Kevin Deery was in the U21 squad for last Tuesday's game against Switzerland, having previously played at U19 level. There are others as well.
Anyone born in the Republic with a Northern parent would also be eligible to play for the North. Just like anyone born in any country with a Northern Irish parent would be eligible to play for the North. Or for any of the British 'home nations', for that matter.
Last edited by dcfcsteve; 14/10/2005 at 3:08 PM.
No they definitely turned him down. His 4 grandparents were from NI but his parents were both born in England, they moved "home" when he was 4. He played schoolboy football for NI but at the time they only selected players born in NI or with a NI born parent so they turned him down. He then declared for us. He qualified for an Irish passport by virtue of any of his 4 NI born grandparents.
Did ok for us too in the WC94 qualifiers, great game in Copenhagen and played well at Windsor and got dogs abuse from the home fans. Lost out then to Phil Babb for the finals.
Gary you're normally a bit of an oracle on these things so I verily shudder at the prospect of taking you on but I suspect yourself and rovers are wrong.
My understanding is English, Scots and Welsh (and actually ROI) born can only play for the respective association unless they qualify for another under the granny rule, NI born can play for NI or ROI (notwithstanding the Citizenship Act which will have some as yet indeterminable effect on "new" Irish and N. Irish), UK passport holders (not born in UK but naturalised) and Channel Isanders/Manx can have their pick of the four associations. Hence Guernseys finest (only) stopper Trevor Woods ended up playing for NI.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
Why did he chose NI over the other three??
Wasn't Le Tissier (or was it Le Saux) also from the Channel Islands? Never heard of a Manx who played for 1 of the 4 British national teams.
Note that both Man, jersey, Guernsey, Alderley and even Sark have national sides who compete in the Island Games and who will very likely participate in the World Cup for non-FIFA-nations next year.
A few questions out of interest in small countries' football:
- Man and Channel Island born players have the choice as they have a semi-independent status. But what about Shetland-born players? They are quite far from Scotland and may not feel more Scottish than English. Can they chose between the 4 as well?
- what about those from Gibraltar, Falkland Islands, Bermuda, ... ?
- what happens when Gibraltar and Falklands (who both want to join FIFA but are blocked by objections from Spain and Argentina) would be accepted? A player born there could have already played for England, but suddenly his own nation is a FIFA member. Would that take away his right to play for England any further?
As for Unionists in the ROI getting British citizenship: makes sense to me, just like Nationalists in the North can get the irish citizenship.
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