Northern Ireland V Wales

[davey]

[QUOTE=Gerrit

As for Unionists in the ROI getting British citizenship: makes sense to me, just like Nationalists in the North can get the irish citizenship.[/QUOTE]

Gerrit, I do cringe when you comment on Irish politics.

This is a complete non issue. The idea that there'll be hundreds of Southern born protestants queuing up to get British citizenship is laughable.

[dcfcsteve]

A few questions out of interest in small countries' football:

- Man and Channel Island born players have the choice as they have a semi-independent status. But what about Shetland-born players? They are quite far from Scotland and may not feel more Scottish than English. Can they chose between the 4 as well?

Shetland is legally and historically part of Scotland. The Channel Islands and Isle of Man (Mannin) are not legally part of any 'home nation', nor have they ever been. They have their own governments, laws and indeed taxation powers - which makes them nigh-on independent nations anyway. Therefore, whilst someone Shetland has no choice, someone from Mannin or the Channel Isles would.

- what about those from Gibraltar, Falkland Islands, Bermuda, ... ?

If they possess British passports (which the first 2 are automatically entitled to) then just like anyone else they have the choice.

- what happens when Gibraltar and Falklands (who both want to join FIFA but are blocked by objections from Spain and Argentina) would be accepted? A player born there could have already played for England, but suddenly his own nation is a FIFA member. Would that take away his right to play for England any further?

If a new FIFA nation appears, players who are eligible to play for them, but who have already played elsewhere, are allowed to switch their footballing allegiances to reflect this change in circumstances. The most recent examples would be the former Yugolsav and Soviet nations/players.

As for Unionists in the ROI getting British citizenship: makes sense to me, just like Nationalists in the North can get the irish citizenship.

Totally agree - though I think you are referring here to 'protestants' in the Republic, not 'Unionists' (very, very few Republic-born Protestants would like to see a return of the Union with Britain). But as Dvaey has pointed out - this is a non-issue. Appears to be another example of childish and pointless tit-for-tat amongst certain Unionist politicians : "Well if northern Catholics can have an Irish passport, then we want southern protestants to be entitled to a British one. Nuh-nuh..."

[Gerrit]

Don't people on the Somers islands (Bermuda) also automatically get the British citizenship? They do have an own FIFA-affiliated team and FA, unlike Falklands and Gibraltar.

[big p from owc]

It was loud and clear to those viewing on TV.

I do think the choice of song was, at best, unfortunate if you/the IFA seriously want to attract support from "all sections of the community".

i just wanted to make a quick comment on this , personally i dont sing rule britannia because it is (IMO) an england song and nothing to do with football but i dont think it is being sung to offend any section of the community , it has been sung for years " but not so much these days because of the reasons i already mentioned". what you have to remember is that there are many people out there who would never ever give our team the time of day (NOT BECAUSE NORN IRON FANS ARE BIGOTS) rather because they themselves are the bigots , these people cannot accept anything british or anything connected with the term NORTHERN IRELAND unless we are talking about a dole cheque .

the good work being done by the fans and through the IFA'S football for all campaign will continue BUT it was never gonna be an overnight job.

sectarianism exists right through-out our community, on BOTH sides of the border you will find sectarian bigots but thankfully things are going in the right direction as regards norn iron games and "PARTY TUNES" at our games are becomming less & less frequent.

by far and away the vast majority of our fans take nothing to do with offensive songs but as we all know "especially from the israel game" for example , there are always a few a**holes who seek to spoil it for the REAL fans.

despite losing our last two group games " which we were pretty unlucky to lose " we have finished this group on a high and we have made real progress under laurie sanchez, i suppose what iam saying is is that it would be helpfull if people try to focus on the positives instead of always nit-picking the negatives and as i have said already , given the divided society that we live in " IT WAS NEVER GONNA BE AN OVERNIGHT JOB " .


BELIEVE.

PS . i write this after my first decent nights sleep in 5 or 6 days after just returning from our game against the "dirty diving austrians" which despite the 2-0 scoreline we could well have won comfortably if sir dave & co had had thier shooting boots on .

anyway, bad luck on not qualifying & good luck with the draw in january

[big p from owc]

Rule Britannia : How dare the Welsh "berate anything British". Oh wait - hang on ! This was a Welsh team, not a British one... Seems the other 'home nations' have no issues asserting their own individual identities over the British one when they play representative sports under their own banners. Only our good friends in Northern Ireland appear unable to present a local 'Norn Irish' identity in place of a British one. Possibly because there is no such thing as a Northern Irish identity ? Would Linfield fans get annoyed if they played Newcastle United and the Toon Army felt it more appropriate to sing 'The Blaydon Races' than God Save the Queen...? I suspect they would. Anyhow - if you want to be with fans who will subside their 'national' identites within the uber-British one, may I suggest the Olympics...?

Inclusiveness : Firstly, it is absurd to try to suggest that the Nationalist community, lock stock and barrel, has no interest in supporting Northern Ireland. So your observation falls at the first hurdle. Secondly - it is correct that a substantial number of northern Nationalists support the Republic over the north. But tell me this : why do you think that is so ? Undoubtedly there is a 'political'/cultural angle, and also one of relative levels of success. But something also went very wrong with Northern Irish football in the late 80's and early 90's that drove a lot of nationalists away from supoorting the team. I'm talking about the rabid sectarianism that was evident on the terraces, and that has only recently been suppressed. How dare northern Catholics refuse to support their own national team, when that team's fans were often to be heard singing anti-Catholic chants at games !! I know of middle-class Catholics in Belfast who used to take their kids to Windsor Park in the 80's, until the sectarianism got to them and they stopped. Their kids now travel to watch Republic of Ireland games. Coincidence....?

As for nationalists supposedly going out of their way to NOT support the north - it cuts both ways. As Exhibit A, your honour, I present a Mr N Lennon of Lurgan Co. Armagh. A Nationalist who WANTED to play for his home nation, but was hounded out by terrace cat-calls, culminating in a bullet in the post, because he played club football for a team very closely identified with the Catholic tradition. As Exhibit B, i give you a Mr A Rogan - also turned-on regularly by his own fans at international games. Much, much worse than some spide in a Republic top chucking stones on the Westlink. And you really wonder why nationalists turned their back on the north....? And when faced with a trickle of Nationalist kids declaring for the Republic rather than the North, did the IFA attempt to understand why and tackle the core issues ? No - instead they threw their toys out of the pram and declared to FIFA that the FAI was actively poaching these kids. If Northern Ireland often struggles to get Nationalists to declare for the playing squad, and actively abuses some of those who do, how the hell do you expect it to get Nationalist support on the terraces ?

The simple fact is that, not so long ago, Northern Ireland had the unambiguous support of both sides of the divide in the North. For a variety of reaons - some out of their control, but many within their direct realm of responsibility - the North lost a large part of that support over a period of probably no more than 10 years. There are still Nationalists who do support Norn Iron - but to have this 'feck them, and feck the others if they won't support us' attitude is pathetic for a team that is trying to present itself as inclusive and which must bear a large chunk of the responsibility for many Nationalists no longer supportin it in the first place. If the positive strides made recently off the pitch continue to be combined with stronger performances on it, more Nationalists will slowly be won back to the team. But if you'd rather supporting Norn Iron was a nationalist-free affair (as some undoubtedly do) then fine - look towards kids throwing stones on the Westlink to justify an outcome that the IFA and the Norn Iron fans are largely themselves responsible for. But drop the pretence of 'inclusivessness', and forget about looking for serious grant aid for anything.

steve , constantly harping back to the bad old days of the 80s & 90s will not help the situation, lets not get into the politics of whataboutary , (we can all do that) the point here is that huge strides are being made by the IFA AND the northern ireland fans to stamp out this problem .

i tell you what mate , you tell me what we would need to do to convince you to again start supporting your country "northern ireland" ?

judging by the sometimes aggressive tone of some of your posts and your apparent strong anti unionist feelings iam intrigued to hear this.

ps . i wonder who it was that let the cat out of the bag about it being the official northern ireland fan club that sent the bullet to neil lennon ? (if it werent so serious it would be laughable) now we "the fans" are also to blame for sending him the bullet pathetic mate , truly pathetic, also you accuse of having no identity but when we display our own national flag and identify with it WE ARE BIGOTS, either we are to have our own identity or we are not , make your mind up !!!

http://www.flagsonline.it/Bandiere/b...rn-ireland.jpg

get rid of the stadium
get rid of the flag
get rid of the anthem
get rid of the songs
WE ALL KNOW WHAT WOULD BE NEXT to get rid of , DONT WE ?

much work will continue to be done to make football TRULY for all in northern ireland but if you seriously think that we will sell our souls merely to pander to people who mostly would be glad to see the back of us " not just as a team but as a people " then iam pleased to tell you that it will be a cold day in hell before that happens , our team & it's fans are not about to don " sack cloth & ashes just yet " .

steve i would encourage you to come to a northern ireland game and see for yourself how much things have changed since you were last there "which must be at least a quarter of a century ago" see for yourself that the mood has changed and real progress has been made & continues to be made , merely scoffing from a distance behind a keyboard on your experiances more than 25 years ago hardly makes you an authority on OUR team as it is today. DONT YOU THINK ?

[dcfcsteve]

steve , constantly harping back to the bad old days of the 80s & 90s will not help the situation, lets not get into the politics of whataboutary , (we can all do that) the point here is that huge strides are being made by the IFA AND the northern ireland fans to stamp out this problem .

I acknowledged this in my last post, and in previous ones on this issue !!!

i tell you what mate , you tell me what we would need to do to convince you start supporting your country "northern ireland" ?

My own views :
- Drop God Save the Queen (both on and off the terraces, although I'll accept it's much harder to 'drop it' as a fan's chant).
- Consider an alterantive 'flag' (though this isn't that big an issue for me personally, and is a much bigger topic than just football).
- Move games to a 'neutral' venue (steps are being made along these lines).,
- Introduce clearly stated policy of removing from the ground anyone singing sectarian songs (the definition of which would need to be clearly defined). I'd be delighted if the FAI adopted a similar policy as well (would be even more happy if they denied access to anyone in a Celtic top full-stop....

The above would genuinely help me feel more comfortable supporting the Northern Ireland team emotionally. Can i repeat again what may seem an outrageous assertion : that I have no strong urge to sit in a sporting venue and hear ANYONE around me singing/making anti-Catholic chants/remarks, whilst watching a team that is consciously draping itself in the symbolism of only one community in our divided province. Is that REALLY such an unreasonable position to take...? I appreciate that big strides are and have been made - but can you look me in the eye and honestly say that no more can be done to make Northern Ireland matchday's a positive and comfortable experience for EVERYONE in the province...? Meanwhile - if I'm home and the North have a senior game on I will make an effort to head along to it anyway to see for myself what's happening at Windsor Park these days. Hopefully I'll have a crackin' time and persuade my Belfast-based football loving friends of both religions to go along in future as well.

judging by the sometimes aggressive tone of some of your posts and your apparent strong anti unionist feelings iam intrigued to hear this.

PLEASE explain how challenging the clearly one-sided symbolism of the Northern Ireland team and a large section of its fans makes me anti-Unionist?? Please don't try to dismiss and deride my comments with a 'sure he's only an aul bigot' arguement. It really doesn't wash....

ps . i wonder who it was that let the cat out of the bag about it being the official northern ireland fan club that sent the bullet to neil lennon ? (if it werent so serious it would be laughable) now we "the fans" are also to blame for sending him the bullet pathetic mate , truly pathetic.

I didn't say that "you the fans" were to blame for that episode. I seriously doubt the official supporters club had anything to do with it, and wasn't actually aware of that story/rumour anyway. But it's just like "they, the fans" aren't to blame for kids in Republic tops chucking stones at cars on the Westlink. It cuts both ways - so why only criticise one assertion, and not the other ?

I hope the above has helped clarify my views and thoughts on this.

[dcfcsteve]

steve , constantly harping back to the bad old days of the 80s & 90s will not help the situation, lets not get into the politics of whataboutary , (we can all do that) the point here is that huge strides are being made by the IFA AND the northern ireland fans to stamp out this problem .

i tell you what mate , you tell me what we would need to do to convince you to again start supporting your country "northern ireland" ?

judging by the sometimes aggressive tone of some of your posts and your apparent strong anti unionist feelings iam intrigued to hear this.

ps . i wonder who it was that let the cat out of the bag about it being the official northern ireland fan club that sent the bullet to neil lennon ? (if it werent so serious it would be laughable) now we "the fans" are also to blame for sending him the bullet pathetic mate , truly pathetic, also you accuse of having no identity but when we display our own national flag and identify with it WE ARE BIGOTS, either we are to have our own identity or we are not , make your mind up !!!

http://www.flagsonline.it/Bandiere/b...rn-ireland.jpg

get rid of the stadium
get rid of the flag
get rid of the anthem
get rid of the songs
WE ALL KNOW WHAT WOULD BE NEXT to get rid of , DONT WE ?

much work will continue to be done to make football TRULY for all in northern ireland but if you seriously think that we will sell our souls merely to pander to people who mostly would be glad to see the back of us " not just as a team but as a people " then iam pleased to tell you that it will be a cold day in hell before that happens , our team & it's fans are not about to don " sack cloth & ashes just yet " .

steve i would encourage you to come to a northern ireland game and see for yourself how much things have changed since you were last there "which must be at least a quarter of a century ago" see for yourself that the mood has changed and real progress has been made & continues to be made , merely scoffing from a distance behind a keyboard on your experiances more than 25 years ago hardly makes you an authority on OUR team as it is today. DONT YOU THINK ?

Jeez Big P - you must have had a bad morning or something, as the tone of your message has been heavily edited (the original appears in my response above, for the record) !

I've said what I have to say. You can be paranoid if you like and refuse to believe that criticism of the Northern Irish set-up can ever be anything other than anti-Unionist propaganda that will never be sated until the protestant people of Ulster are forever banished into the sea. If you're going to refuse to accept that I even have a valid point, without questioning my motives and agenda, then there really is no point us having such a discussion.

Everything else I hope I've tackled in my response above.

[big p from owc]

Jeez Big P - you must have had a bad morning or something, as the tone of your message has been heavily edited (the original appears in my response above, for the record) !

I've said what I have to say. You can be paranoid if you like and refuse to believe that criticism of the Northern Irish set-up can ever be anything other than anti-Unionist propaganda that will never be sated until the protestant people of Ulster are forever banished into the sea. If you're going to refuse to accept that I even have a valid point, without questioning my motives and agenda, then there really is no point us having such a discussion.

Everything else I hope I've tackled in my response above.

steve the edits were for minor changes like spelling and punctuation.

for me the flag thing & the national anthem is a major issue , you say why should the NI team have a flag that only represents one part of the community ? why then do we have to see the irish rugby team have the irish tricolour as it's flag & soldiers song as the anthem ? i personally dont mind this as i dont follow rugby but when it comes to football everybody seems to be going out of thier way to be offended by this, you dont hear constent protests from unionists about this do you ?

BTW . the edit was for my poor spelling. HA

[dcfcsteve]

steve the edits were for minor changes like spelling and punctuation.

Errrr - sorry Big P but that's ******. Your original post from earlier today is quoted 100% in the post that I put up at 1:20pm. Unluckily for you, whilst you were "correcting the spelling" of that post - i.e. converting it from a broadly sensible response into a "we are the people - we shalt never be defeated by you and your hidden Popish agenda" style rant - I was responding to that original sane post. Hence why it is captured intact in my response of 1:20pm. I don't think that adding nonesense like 'take our anthem, our flag, our stadium - we all know what's next...!', to quote but one change, can rightfully be described as mere minor changes to diction ! Or is revisionism now a form of grammatical correction...?

for me the flag thing & the national anthem is a major issue , you say why should the NI team have a flag that only represents one part of the community ? why then do we have to see the irish rugby team have the irish tricolour as it's flag & soldiers song as the anthem ? i personally dont mind this as i dont follow rugby but when it comes to football everybody seems to be going out of thier way to be offended by this, you dont hear constent protests from unionists about this do you ?

The Irish rugby team HAS selected a 'neutral' anthem that it plays at all its games - Ireland's Call. They also play Amhran na bhFiann when they play games in Dublin. But then, they also played GSTQ when they last played an International at Ravenhill. I would have no issue with a different flag being used as the 'official' team one - perhaps the shamrocks over rugby ball image from the crest. So where does that leave us then ? With one sports association that has made a half-attempt at 'neutralising' itself, and another that has made none. And with one of us who is willing to see changes to 'neutralise' sport on the island, and another of us who is seemingly unwilling....

BTW . the edit was for my poor spelling. HA

No it wasn't. HA !

[big p from owc]

Errrr - sorry Big P but that's ******. Your original post from earlier today is quoted 100% in the post that I put up at 1:20pm. Unluckily for you, whilst you were "correcting the spelling" of that post - i.e. converting it from a broadly sensible response into a "we are the people - we shalt never be defeated by you and your hidden Popish agenda" style rant - I was responding to that original sane post. Hence why it is captured intact in my response of 1:20pm. I don't think that adding nonesense like 'take our anthem, our flag, our stadium - we all know what's next...!', to quote but one change, can rightfully be described as mere minor changes to diction ! Or is revisionism now a form of grammatical correction...?



The Irish rugby team HAS selected a 'neutral' anthem that it plays at all its games - Ireland's Call. They also play Amhran na bhFiann when they play games in Dublin. But then, they also played GSTQ when they last played an International at Ravenhill. I would have no issue with a different flag being used as the 'official' team one - perhaps the shamrocks over rugby ball image from the crest. So where does that leave us then ? With one sports association that has made a half-attempt at 'neutralising' itself, and another that has made none. And with one of us who is willing to see changes to 'neutralise' sport on the island, and another of us who is seemingly unwilling....



No it wasn't. HA !

despite your petty attempts to paint me as a person with hardline beliefs ( which is something that i do not have ) , your own intolerance and failure to grasp opinions from " the other side " shows you not to be the diplomat that you think you are steve , i have read quite a few of your posts on this site over the past few weeks and on more than one occasion the mask has almost slipped.

YOU CAN FOOL SOME OF THE PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME ......

[dcfcsteve]

despite your petty attempts to paint me as a person with hardline beliefs ( which is something that i do not have ) , your own intolerance and failure to grasp opinions from " the other side " shows you not to be the diplomat that you think you are steve , i have read quite a few of your posts on this site over the past few weeks and on more than one occasion the mask has almost slipped.

YOU CAN FOOL SOME OF THE PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME ......

Not trying to paint you as someone with hardline beliefs (though you constantly try to suggest that I am of such views). I was only mirroring back to you what you yourself have clearly written above Big P. Your last main post on this topic was genuinely bordering on irrational with the whole "We know what's next" train of thought.

And you still haven't clarified why you felt the need to pretend you didn't make major changes to the tone and content of a post, and then claim they were only typo corrections ? Why did you feel the need to lie over this ?

And to bring us back the the direction of the debate - the IRFU have gone some way (though arguably not enough) towards 'neutralising' the symbolism of Irish International rugby, which I welcome. Why can't the IFA make similar steps (e.g. adopt a neutral anthem) ? And I would be happy to see the IRFU gopt further and adopt a neutral 'official' flag (for the record - I attend Ireland rugby games home and away regularly, so it is of direct concern to me), but you don't seem willing to countenace anything similar from the IFA. So that makes me the intolerant one... ??

[big p from owc]

steve you quite clearly have no time for prods FULL STOP . " thats the bottom line with you no matter how much you try to back track "

i have not come on here mixing or being offensive to anybody but because i took a different line to you and felt your demands on the IFA were excessive & bordering on total capitulation you have tried to label me some kind of bigot .

from the off set i have made it clear that iam a fervent supporter of the IFA'S FOOTBALL FOR ALL campaign and that further change was possable to make owc games more welcoming to ALL sections of our society, but when i voiced my fears about your list of demands you brand me as some type of "paislyesque taig hating nutter" . i feel that this obvious flaw in your character is very revealing .

thats all i will say on the matter because iam not here to get involved in a war of words with people who simply hate everything norn iron .

BOOM BOOM GREEN & WHITE ARMY !

[dcfcsteve]

steve you quite clearly have no time for prods FULL STOP . " thats the bottom line with you no matter how much you try to back track "

i have not come on here mixing or being offensive to anybody but because i took a different line to you and felt your demands on the IFA were excessive & bordering on total capitulation you have tried to label me some kind of bigot .

from the off set i have made it clear that iam a fervent supporter of the IFA'S FOOTBALL FOR ALL campaign and that further change was possable to make owc games more welcoming to ALL sections of our society, but when i voiced my fears about your list of demands you brand me as some type of "paislyesque taig hating nutter" . i feel that this obvious flaw in your character is very revealing .

thats all i will say on the matter because iam not here to get involved in a war of words with people who simply hate everything norn iron .

BOOM BOOM GREEN & WHITE ARMY !

Well Big P - it's unfortunate that you appear unable or unwilling to differentiate between what I (and I believe most other observers on here) would perceieve to be reasonable questions and requests (albeit coming from the angle of one community) and a philosophy of anti-protestantism. You really couldn't be further wrong - if only because I have close family members in Northern Ireland and elsewhere who are Protestant (including areas considered Loyalist, such as Ballysillan for example). Believe what you will, but I ain't anti-protestant. As I mentioned before - it is possible to criticise the one-sided symbolism of the Northern Irish international football set-up without being anti-protestant.

Also - I'd rather you didn't use quotation marks for things that I didn't say, as you've done a number of times above. Quotation/speech marks are used to denote quotes - exact replications of something somebody has said or written. I know you're summarising your perception of my views - which is your right - but please don't use quotation marks do this, particularly when they are grossly misrepresentative. I did it once in an earlier post in response to you - which was an error and mistake on my part, for which I apologise.

And not to get into the old 'who said what to who and when' - if you read back through this thread you'll find that the only accusations of bigotry between us have been from yourself - starting with your post of 12:46pm yesterday when you accused me of having "....strong anti-Unionist feelings". I have neitehr called, or alluded, that you are a bigot at any point in this debate. I'm also confident that anyone else willing to be objective on this site who reads this thread will conclude that my posts have been rational, grounded, unbigoted, fair and non-inflammatory - even if they don't ailgn themselves with the views I'm expressing.

If you consider the creation of a neutral identity for the national team of a deeply divided province to be not only a negative step, but indeed one of "total capitulation", then we are unfortunately too far apart in our views to do more than go round and round in circles needlessly.

Now - if you'll excuse me I'll go back to my dark lair where you'll be delighted to hear I will continue working Austin Powers-stylee with my numerous minnions on our grand plan for the total destruction of Northern Ireland, the protestant faith, the English monarchy, Tayto Castle, the Giant's Causeway and the Aul Lamma's Fair. Woo-ha-ha-HAAAAAA !

[dcfcsteve]

24hrs later Big P, and I am still absolutely raging at your completely unfounded allegation that I "clearly have no time for Prods full stop".

For some reason, I am unable to edit my last message on this thread (I sense the hand of the moderators), so I'm forced to post a new message to add the following.

Below is a list of views I have expressed on foot.ie over the last few months. They are there on the record to be checked. I would like you to consider whether these can in any way be attributed to someone who is "clearly" anti-protestant. If you're keen enough to cast mud in my direction, hopefully you'll be man enough to admit if the following counters this unfounded view you have attributed to me.

- I stated that I would like to see the 12th of July become a national holiday in the Republic, with marches and events in Dublin and elsewhere to celebrate such a huge event in the history of Ireland and, indeed, Europe. Posted in an off-topic thread in July (see here : http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=2719...ight=12th+july ).
- I said that Protestants in the Republic should be entitled to British passports/citizenship if they so wish, to reflect their dual-heritage.
- I said that I would like to see the IRFU use a 'neutral' flag (e.g. shamrocks over rugby ball), instead of the Irish tricolour.
- I posted an article regarding the linguistic rights of the overwhelmingly protestant Gaidhlig speaking population of Scotland.

If the above are the trademarks of someone who "clearly has no time for prods" then Ian Paisley could at-best only be described as mildly sympathic to the Unionist cause....

[gspain]

Gary you're normally a bit of an oracle on these things so I verily shudder at the prospect of taking you on but I suspect yourself and rovers are wrong.

My understanding is English, Scots and Welsh (and actually ROI) born can only play for the respective association unless they qualify for another under the granny rule, NI born can play for NI or ROI (notwithstanding the Citizenship Act which will have some as yet indeterminable effect on "new" Irish and N. Irish), UK passport holders (not born in UK but naturalised) and Channel Isanders/Manx can have their pick of the four associations. Hence Guernseys finest (only ) stopper Trevor Woods ended up playing for NI.

Not wrong here.

FIFA rules are that you must be entitled to a passport for the country you play for. The UK is recognized as one country by UN etc but as 4 by FIFA because there was adeal done back in the 40's when FIFA was bankrupt and the 4 home nations bailed them out.

To play for any of the 4 home nations therefore you need a British passport. Now there is an understanding that you must "qualify" with a grandparent etc but this is not necessary according to FIFA.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Not wrong here.

FIFA rules are that you must be entitled to a passport for the country you play for. The UK is recognized as one country by UN etc but as 4 by FIFA because there was adeal done back in the 40's when FIFA was bankrupt and the 4 home nations bailed them out.

To play for any of the 4 home nations therefore you need a British passport. Now there is an understanding that you must "qualify" with a grandparent etc but this is not necessary according to FIFA.

Ah I see ...that sounds fairly probable ...and for that matter is probably the inspiration for any such IFA move to initiate such a deal with the FAI -which of course would be a lot more politically sensitive on this island as it would have the effect of denying NI born folk of a particular inclination the opportunity to play for us.
If appied to the letter such a deal (which I think would be morally wrong -and illegal in any event I'd say) would have the effect of taking away from no less a figure than Shay Given -born in Derrys Altnagelvin (but reared in Donegal) the opportunity to play for Ireland.

[gspain]

Ah I see ...that sounds fairly probable ...and for that matter is probably the inspiration for any such IFA move to initiate such a deal with the FAI -which of course would be a lot more politically sensitive on this island as it would have the effect of denying NI born folk of a particular inclination the opportunity to play for us.
If appied to the letter such a deal (which I think would be morally wrong -and illegal in any event I'd say) would have the effect of taking away from no less a figure than Shay Given -born in Derrys Altnagelvin (but reared in Donegal) the opportunity to play for Ireland.

Shay was born at home in Donegal apparently although the Derry story does the rounds.

Roy Wegerle played for U.S.A. because he got a passport by marrying a U.S. citizen.

The rule is simple - once you get a passport for a country and are not tied to another country then you can play for them

There did appear to be an unwritten understanding between the F.A.I. and IFA that we would not take players born in NI without an RoI obvious connection but this is now gone. Alan Kernaghan was different as they turned him down but the likes of Henry McStay is causing bad blood. So far none of these players have got a senior cap but that is only a matter of time. Anybody born in NI (by and large small changes in referenda) is entitled to an Irish passport and thus to represent the RoI in football. It doesn't work in reverse and most people here are not entitled to a British passport and therefore cannot play for any of the 4 home nations.

BTW Tony Cascarino was always entitled to play for Ireland by FIFA rules. The government may have mistakenly given him an Irish passport but that did not make him ineligible. If the Dept of Foreign Affairs went to the Copacabana beach and handed out Irish passports to any talented footballers they could all play for us.

[Sheridan]

Alan Kernaghan was different as they turned him down

The did indeed, but since Kernaghan was born in England (which was why the IFA turned him down, in fact) the terms of the gentlemen's agreement didn't apply.

If the Dept of Foreign Affairs went to the Copacabana beach and handed out Irish passports to any talented footballers they could all play for us.

The eligibility rule has since been amended to prevent this type of scenario from arising, after the Qatari FA offered uncapped Brazilians generous financial packages to switch allegiance. A residency period of two years (I think) must now also be served.

[dcfcsteve]

The eligibility rule has since been amended to prevent this type of scenario from arising, after the Qatari FA offered uncapped Brazilians generous financial packages to switch allegiance. A residency period of two years (I think) must now also be served.

You sure that's right Sheridan ? It would reduce the likelihood of passport abuse, but would also effectively destroy 95% of the benefit/purpose of the parentage rule if that was the case. Look at the Ireland team of the 80's/90's - Houghton, Aldridge, McCarthy, Lawrenson, Hughton etc. None of them lived in Ireland. Other nations in the world will currently be at the same stage in developing their football game as we were back then, and will be looking to use the parentage rule to help them.

When was the Qatari ruling ? I don't follow other international teams well enough to know of any very-recent new caps given out through the parentage rule. Certainly the last senior 'parentage' cap I can think of in the Republic's squad (Clinton ?) hasn't lived in Ireland (though he has been in the Ireland squad since 2001).

[Sheridan]

You sure that's right Sheridan ? It would reduce the likelihood of passport abuse, but would also effectively destroy 95% of the benefit/purpose of the parentage rule if that was the case. Look at the Ireland team of the 80's/90's - Houghton, Aldridge, McCarthy, Lawrenson, Hughton etc. None of them lived in Ireland. Other nations in the world will currently be at the same stage in developing their football game as we were back then, and will be looking to use the parentage rule to help them

I should have been clearer, this stipulation applies only where players do not satisfy the ancestry criteria (grandparent or more recent.) Needless to say, none of the putative Brazilian defectors was of Qatari extraction.