very interesting tv programme on bbc the other night. europes lost civilizations. documented the moor influence on southern spain. very enlightening.the moor-dominated area was very tolerant, mixed between jews arabs adn christians.of course the pope ****ed things up when he started the crusades and destroyed these tolerant societies.Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
the moorish influence is hugely visible today in the south of spain, and many names are of moorish origin, al andaluz/ben-al-medina etc
as i said, fascinating programme.
generally speaking, im in favor of EU expansion. but id be worried the EU is expanding to quick/too soon these days.
on a tangent i think expansion into the balkans would be great,it would really help the various states/ethnic minorities etc to move forward from the devastation of the post-Tito years-because its no coincidence that noy EU states have fought a war with each other since joining the EU.compared to the previous 1950 year period 0BC-1945
Last edited by anto eile; 05/10/2005 at 7:33 PM.
That would be an awful idea. Bosnia has about 50% unemployment. It's an horrendus entity with a terrible structure. It's well off any sort of EU standard. Kosovo is just as bad, in an awful shape too. A lot of people in the Balkan region are also not too warm on the idea of the EU for various reasons.
The country was riddled by war for years so what would you expect. If they put the right structures in place and prove they are working to rectify all human rights issues then they sholud be allowed in within the next decade. I've been to Bosnia and while the place is destroyed from the war they are very optimistic people and have a good cross-over of cultures and would be a good addition to the EU in my opinion
I was in Sarajevo in 2002 and its a fantastic city. Great night life and lovely ladies.
Well to put a bit of background here. Bosnia was the centre of the ex Yugoslavia Armaments industry.... need I say more
They don't have the right structures in place. It's an absolute mess. The whole Republika Srbska thing is just a mess. There's a lot of black market economy and a lot of corruption. In spite of whether you have had a nice place in these countries or not they have a long long way to come.
That's the whole point of enlargement. We encourage these countries economically, politically, socially etc. to become modern democratic European states. That's also why it will take so long for Turkey and the Balkan countries to join. They're not joining tomorrow FFS.
Don't forget we were a basket case when we joined in 1973 with a government that thought the very existence of the state was under threat from the IRA.
The EU is a mess at the moment but that doesn't mean the whole project is worthless. On the contrary, it's the best way forward for a peaceful Europe, as has been proved since the end of WWII.
KOH
No One Likes Us, We Don't Care
Most of the problems stem from the border redrawing which took place after Tito's last Federal Constitutional Referendum. Croatia should not have it's present borders and neither should Bosnia. If both entities had been drawn in a proper manner, the civil war might never have occurred.
The 30% Serbian population in Eastern Bosnia never wanted to be ruled by the Muslim/Croat majority coalition hence the civil war.After the Dayton Accords they continued as Republica Srpska, which is being recognised by Sarajevo now as a de facto regional government. Yes they don't have propers structures yes there is a black market economy and corruption. For one thing the money purloined by the Serb militias during the campaign needed to be laundered. But as the best efforts of the Football Federation have illustrated with the passage of time and when tensions subside some kind of unity is attainable. The All Federal Bosnian First League is a case in point. And people of Serb ethnic origin have been called up by the Bosnian national team.
The EU has been a massive success for peace & prosperity. Its not so long ago that countries such as Spain & Greece were under military rule. The EU also uses its economic weigh on neighbouring countries that will never join such as Russia to make those economies more open & therefore more democratic.
My 2 cents worth:
Turkey - should be allowed to join in time but until they clean up their human rights record regarding their Kurdish, Armenian and Greek population and agree to a unilateral & unconditional pullout from Cyprus (in which all Greek Cypriot refugees are allowed to return to their homes or compensated for their loss of property and loved ones and illegal Anatolian Turkish settlers leave occupied Cyprus) then Turkey have to be shown the stick. However the carrot of membership of the EU should also be used to entice citizen Osman.Strongly in favour of Turkish membership. Personally I feel this Christian nonsense from the far right is repulsive.
Croatia - Has not apologised for the ethnic cleansing of 200,000 Serbs from Kraijina, Gotovina is a hero, rampant nationalism and anti-semitism lurking, nuff said about this lot.
Bosnia - In a complete mess at the moment and the presence of thousands of NATO troops is keeping the three main sides from declaring open season on each other. Economy still hasnt recovered from the 1992-95 war. Bosnia like Kosovo is a haven for gangsterism, corruption and drug/people trafficking. The Muslim/Croat federation is racked by infighting and the Republika Sprska is an isolated parastate. Attempts by the Imperial Viceroy Paddy Ashdowne to impose a centralised state is meeting strong resistance from both Croats and Serbs.
Kosovo - Run by the KLA mafia whose ethnic cleansing policy against the remaining Serbs, Gypsies, Jews and Turks seems to be the only thing working in what is a god forsaken place. UN faliure at its most graphic.
Serbia - Fighting for its very existence. Seperatist sentiment in the Muslim dominated Novi Pazar region and Presevo Valley, ethnic Bulgarians in the east, Hungarians, Romanians, Slovaks & Croats in Vojvodina, Montenegro and Kosovo permantely lost means the Serbs gambled all their hand on one throw and lost big time. Many Serbs view the EU with mistrust at best seeing the EU's record in dismantling the old socialist Yugoslavia (fostering of Slovene, Croat and Bosniak seperatist movements) and the EU/NATO inspired land grab in Kosovo. Serbia's refusal to adopt free market economics or abandon the Titoist socialist model in the 1980s incurred the permenant wrath of the West. Need I mention that Kosovo is rich in mineral wealth and multinational companies already moving in to requisition mines and factories owned by Belgrade. To sum it up, Serbia is well and truly ****ed.
Macedonia - a mixture of Bosnia, Serbia and Kosovo.
Partizan
Bring back Yugoslavia!
Just to turn the thread around but you had choice to expel any current EU member who would it be?
Belgium. Get rid of Brussels and eliminate Eurocracy.
Great Britain they are a bunch of Eurosceptics!
What about Northern Ireland? Do they stay in as the UK?Great Britain they are a bunch of Eurosceptics!
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