forget about wales or scotland.I for one wouldnt be able to aford trips to these places every few weeks and im sure most of you would agree with me.An all ireland league is the best way to go,but dont think the regional leagues for 1st division would get any attendances bigger than a few hundred at most.
I've just noticed that in the section where they compare attendances across leagues, they've used our figures from here as reported on www.European-Football-Statistics.com!!! How amateur is that?! Sure those figures could be meaningless - and indeed, the first year we did them, they were way off. They're also from half-way through the season and are hardly a useable average. No accreditation is given, from what I can see. Very amateur-looking report, to be honest.
This report may contain innovative ideas, but as pineapple stu says, its a very amateur presentation. The FAI probably paid good money for this. For instance, when comparing other sports facilities in a particular locality, they just lifted images from www.worldstadiums.com and the Bord na gCon website. I'd call that theft. It also shows that they probably didn't visit the other venues, or if they did, they didn't bring a camera.
The analysis that (the Republic of) Ireland has too many top flight teams per head is flawed. They compare us to other European leagues, not one of which has a lower population that the Republic. The logical extention of the argument is that if this were a country of 1 million people, there should only be three teams!
It also contradicts one of its own arguments - that clubs should be based in the larger population centres. Waterford, Galway, Limerick are suitably large population centres, but if the 'top 10' were decided today they wouldn't be included. This doesn't mean that all of a sudden the supporters of Waterford, Galway, Limerick (or anywhere else) will suddenly swing behind some team that did make it into the top 10! The markets for each club are completely different (with the exception of Dublin). The competition for resources is not from other clubs, but from other sports. By creating a 10-team elite with limited promotion/relegation, you are effectively disenfranchising the potential support in these population centres from the league altogether.
On the positive, I do think there should be at least one club in almost every county (i.e. expansion to 30 clubs) , and it does highlight that the marketing for competing sports is glossier, sexier and more professional.
But my overall feeling is that this report is weak.
From the Irish Times
from the indoBroad acceptance for report
Emmet Malone
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/spo...METSOCCER.html
National League: Clubs from around the country yesterday gave a cautious welcome to the report by Genesis into how the Eircom League might be overhauled and reorganised so as to improve the public image, management and financial stability of senior football here, all of which, it was conceded by delegates, fall well short of the desired levels.
At a meeting in Dublin, where the consultants gauged reaction to their proposals prior to the drafting of their final report, representatives of the 22 league clubs, as well as other sectors of the game, broadly accepted the rather stark assessment of the league's problems and broadly agreed with the recommendations made, although it was clear that a good deal of work remained to be done before a final set of proposals can be put forward for implementation.
Addressing the meeting, Brian MacNeice of Genesis outlined the extent of the challenges facing the league. Total revenues, he said, were "pitifully low" at €14 million while expenditure was roughly €17 million, public perception of the senior game was poor and the league's share of sports sponsorship in the country negligible at just €587,000 out of an estimated €67 million.
"Most clubs are struggling to survive," he said, "and at the consultation stage there has been widespread criticism of the fact that the clubs are running the league for the clubs rather than there being a long-term plan for the benefit of the league itself."
Among the recommendations made to address the situation is a 10-team premier or "elite" division with two regionalised divisions operating below it, the use of participation agreements to bind clubs to short, medium and long-term development plans covering every aspect of their operations (including the likes of administrative structures, infrastructural investment and community development work) as well as an immediate merger between the league and the FAI.
"There's a great deal in here that we have been talking about ourselves at club level," said Nial O'Reilly of Galway United. "My only concern is that there has been a lot of talk here about evolution but the time for that has passed now . . . it's revolution that we're in urgent need of."
Other clubs raised questions about the future of summer football, the precise nature of the merger and the proposed 30-team structure, but there was a surprisingly upbeat reaction to what was essentially a rather damning report with both MacNeice and his Genesis colleague, Alistair Gray, making it clear that they felt both the league in its current form and many of the clubs that make it up were deeply flawed and unsustainable.
One proposal to win particular support was the idea of a player wage cap which, it is envisaged, would be a part of the participation agreement. It is currently proposed that no more than 65 per cent of a club's turnover could be devoted to player costs. Shelbourne's Ollie Byrne, however, suggested that such a rule would prove unenforceable while Fran Gavin of the PFAI expressed his bemusement. "I have to laugh," he said, "because the people proposing a wage cap are never the ones who are going to be affected by it."
FAI chief executive John Delaney said afterwards he had been pleased by the response to the report and hoped the recommendations would be acted upon.
© The Irish Times
It's Genesis or bust, Delaney warns clubs
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click here to enlarge
Alistair Gray, managing director Genesis, with John Delaney at the release of the White Paper yesterday.
FAI chief executive John Delaney has warned that clubs will go bust if the Eircom League doesn't embrace the recommendations made in the Genesis White Paper which was published yesterday.
Genesis, the Scottish/Irish consultants, spent four months preparing their comprehensive report and discovered that the 22 Eircom League clubs are losing €3million a year on a collective turnover of €14m.
Delaney believes there is now no turning back as the League bids to saves itself from extinction.
"Costs are rising faster than revenues are accruing and while tradition, history and heritage keep many clubs going the inevitable truth is that financially the League is in a wholly unsustainable position," said Delaney.
"I wouldn't put a number on it but I certainly believe that, as standards improve and the league stays in its current state of limbo, I have no doubt that there will be casualties.
"If part of our game is suffering we need to resolve it and the Eircom League is suffering. I don't think there is a magic wand here or one recommendation that will solve this."
Genesis make 11 recommendations on how to make the League viable. These include changes in management and league structures, merging with the FAI and the introduction of participation agreements, development structures and wage control. It also proposes better facilities, marketing, club administration and community links.
The merger with the FAI, the proposed league structure and wage control are the three areas that are likely to cause the most contention.
Genesis has proposed an elite 10-team league with two 10-team regional leagues plus national U21 and U18 leagues. They also want all wages capped at 65 per cent of turnover.
The FAI board last week approved the report and set in a train a process whereby the chief executive would be joined by two other association nominees on an implementation steering committee that would also include three representatives from the Eircom League clubs.
They will be expected to digest the Genesis Report and arrive at recommendations that would be put to the clubs at an Eircom League AGM.
It is envisaged having the entire implementation process completed before the start of the 2006 season so that the steering committee's recommendations can be introduced in 2007.
Delaney said that the situation in the Eircom League is so grave that the clubs will have no other option but to back the steering committee's proposals when they are produced.
"When Paddy McCaul, chairman of the League, and I asked Genesis to consult with the stakeholders of the league, we were conscious that once we embarked on the road, there was no turning back.
"The train has left the station," said Delaney.
Meanwhile, John Byrne has been appointed as acting director of the League with acting general manager Michael Hayes assuming the role of operations manager.
Gerry McDermott
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...issue_id=13053
from the examiner
27/09/05
Genesis revelations portray eircom League in crisis
By Liam Mackey
THE eircom League was yesterday portrayed as a sick patient whose only hope of recovery rests with radical surgery.
In a white paper on the league's strategic direction, Genesis the management consultants who produced the post-Saipan blueprint for reform of the FAI say that the senior domestic game is "near to being economically bankrupt, is unsustainable in its current format and incapable of sustaining itself into the future."
Citing this as a "make or break time for the league", Genesis suggest that "tinkering" with the problems will not be enough. Instead they propose what they call "a radical overhaul."
Chief among their recommendations is a new league format which would see an elite 'Irish Premiership' of ten teams, beneath which would be two regional leagues of ten teams each, as well as four U21 and U18 regional leagues, the latter with links to amateur and schoolboy clubs.
There would be promotion and relegation between the elite league and the Regional League on a play-off basis, and promotion and relegation between the Regional Leagues and the Amateur Leagues.
With 12 clubs set to play in the Regional League, space for a further eight teams would be created and the Genesis report suggests priority should be given to representative sides from the likes of the Kerry or Mayo leagues.
Other key recommendations include the full merger of the League and the FAI; the existing 22-strong management committee to be cut to an eight person executive; mandatory participation agreements (strongly linked to the current club licensing scheme); investment in facilities and community links; a re-branding of the league as part of an improved marketing drive; and the introduction of clear development structures, incorporating coaching, training and under-age football.
The white paper contains a number of proposals which are already proving controversial, including a players' salary cap whereby clubs would have to adhere to a spending limit of 65% of turnover on players' wages and costs. Yesterday, Shelbourne Chief
Executive Ollie Byrne said that such wage controls wouldn't have "a snowball's chance in hell" of working.
Many fans of Dublin clubs will also react strongly to the suggestion that there should be ground-sharing between clubs in the capital.
In a vision of the future according to Genesis, within five years the league would see attendances increase to an average of 4,000-5,000, with matches played in high quality, all-seater stadia. Clubs would have professional management and administration, re-branding would bring in lucrative sponsorship and the league would attract Government and private investment.
The FAI and League have already offered their support for the plan.
Said FAI Chief Executive John Delaney: "The challenge now is to grasp the ideas and press ahead in consultation with the stakeholders to reform the league. Leaving the status quo in place is not an option."
Delaney spelled out the problems currently facing the league: "Despite great strides on the park, as evidenced in our clubs' European campaigns, despite the better playing surfaces and despite the recent improvement in facilities, the League is not in a position to continue as it is.
"Attendances are a fraction of what they were. Costs are rising faster than revenues are accruing and while tradition, history and heritage keep many clubs going against the odds, the inevitable truth is that, financially, the League is in a wholly unsustainable position."
http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/w...aewFBADppk.asp
Thanks Schumi.
not an Olly bashing post, but why is he so against a wage cap? A club should not be allowed to spend more than it earns, or take out loans to cover wages (let's ignore loans for capital investment). Surely this is just sound financial practice. A club will clearly have other expenses relating to match days, training, travel, administration, marketing etc. When you add up all the expenditures, they should be less than the total income (thus giving a profit to be used for ground improvements, transfers etc.). This means that a club's wages bill is already a percentage of their income, so what's wrong with putting a limit on this percentage?
In general, clubs in the EL are like little kids. If you let a kid decide their own bedtime they'll stay up all night and be knackered the next morning. Therefore, a parent has to tell them to go to bed and enforce the bedtime. Clubs in this country cannot be trusted to run themselves properly, therefore standards (which seem obvious) must be imposed from above to ensure the survival of the clubs and the league.
Incidentally, the PFAI are against salary caps. What a surprise. They need to cop on and realise that every worker in every company in the country has a salary cap of exactly the type being proposed by the report. I mean where else do you see a business paying its employees more than they're earning? It's ludicrous!
Foot.ie's entire existence is predicated on the average idiot's inability to ignore other idiots
I think his point was its nigh on impossible to enforce? Even Pat Scully was saying the same thing on EL Weekly last night, that clubs would go outside the boundaries to get the players.
God
The 30 team league isnt as looney as it sounds
when you actually read the detail but it is explained very poorly
It has alot of room for improvemnt the idea can be developed
Does anyone agree?
Not only that but they show what I assume are gaa stadiums from Limerick and Cork which are almost entirely terraced while elsewhere they say "The days of open terraces... have been replaced with all-seater stadia". There are some good ideas but the report itself looks shoddily put together.Originally Posted by crc
It doesn't actually advocate this. It just mentions it in an appendix as one possibility they looked at. They advocate a 10-team premier and two regional 1st divisions.
We're not arrogant, we're just better.
Apologies. They still wasted their time even looking at this possibility and mentioning it in their report.
Report comes across as a load of amatuerish tosh to me. Regional Divisions will not work and would absolutely kill interest in Limerick for one. Also the wage cap would merely end up punishing the clubs who try and adopt it. There is enough nudge, nudge, wink, wink in the league at the moment it would be absolute open season if they tried to bring in a salary cap. Completely unenforceable ludicrous idea and even if it were to happen it would simply lead to a poorer standard with clubs unable to even afford to compete with lowere league English teams wage wise. I mean could you imagine the team ourselves or the likes of Ucd would have only being allowed to spend 65% of turnover on wages
You're looking at it, I would imagine. Our turnover last season was bigger than Harps'. We're not quite as small as everyone makes out to be.I mean could you imagine the team...the likes of UCD would have only being allowed to spend 65% of turnover on wages
Read the Report last night & not very impressive at all.
- They said eL could make top 20 european leagues in 5 years which is impossible as betrays lack of understanding oif the coefficients. To make top 20 every year we would have to get as many points as our last 5 years combined.
- There are no official attendance figures for 2003 & 2004 so don't know how they can make any claims good or bad about.
- If i had a weeks spare time i could have writtne the report myself.
- I acknowledge that the Report is only phase 1 but the lack of any cost projections whatsoever lets it down badly.
The most interesting section was the people who were interviewed:
- Some clubs never interviewed. I assume they didn't put themselves forward for interview.
- Don Givens U21 International Manager never interviewed bu Senior Manager was. Givens would surely have had insight into eL players abilities as always has a few in his squad.
look at it like this
10 TEAM premier (not much change there)
12 team first(not much change)
8 New teams for example
Leinster, Munster,Connaught,Ulster(maybe) Senior league
selections
(all would have at least one team in respective leagues with
grounds as good as any in the eircom league) plus maybe Kerry
Team ,Mayo Team and North Eastern Regions team( or if you can
think of better reps have them)
In addition all El teams have schoolboy sections and 18's and
21's are EL only
Now what you have is still the top league and first but every
other grade of football in the wole
country is tied in and feeding the EL the (pyramid structure in
place)
Technically not impossible (the five years would start from next year), but highly improbable alright. Ignores the fact that we're on course for 30th in three years.
They lifted the figures from foot.ie, effectively.
Is that five minutes to do the report and the rest of the week to review all your spelling errors?
All Apologies I was trying to think of a Premier Club with small crowds that was relevant
In regards to the accuracy of the crowds, pictures of stadia and other matters I wouldnt go too hard on this report. The Eircom League after all isnt very accurate in producing statistics or anything like data on stadia grounds around the country.
This white paper isnt the best white paper I have read (and I have read a few on different government departments) but I didnt expect it to be . After all the Eircom League is the poor relation of sport in Ireland. Its more about getting the basics right, i.e sound finances, proper facilities, technical development plans and all that.
I think the recommendations are mostly spot on. 65% is enough to spend on players but my only worry is that clubs wont abide by the rules. Its up to the FAI to make sure that they do. For a start they can introduce a single contract type which should help the league a lot (and stop players going to Ingerland for peanuts).
Ireland will be 30th in 3 years if all goes to plan. Thats IF clubs continue to get the results in Europe like we did this seasosm. I dont know how we can jump to 20th though. If anyone reads the co-efficents thread they'll know there is a big glass ceiling around 26th position and to get through that will take serious work by the clubs.
So, yes there are some parts in the white paper that are overally optimistic and others that seem factually wrong but on the whole I think its a great document and just hope that all the recommendations are seen though.
Fair enough!
From what I remember of the figures for last year (they're on the General Forum here somewhere), UCD, Bray and Harps were in the top five in the First Division sizewise. Dundalk and Galway were in there as well. Limerick and Kilkenny were by far and away the smallest teams in the league.
Thats lowIs that five minutes to do the report and the rest of the week to review all your spelling errors?but true
Would you believe i have customer facing job
I think the report is a typicla consultant report like a government would commission - pay outsiders to tell you what you should already know.
Best things that pointed out were:
- lack of clear brand for league
- no coherent league wide marketing/branding
- Rugbys Celtic league gets same attendances.
- Pitiful overall league sponsorship value (AIB announced paying €1m per year for AIL rugby - we surely have to be higher status than them?
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