Trouble at Derry vs. Rovers and Irish language debate!!

[Eire06]

You do seven subjects for Leaving Cert (or at least most schools do; we were given an optional eighth as well). Only six count. You can do badly in Irish but still get into medicine. In any case, you can apply that argument to any subject. Is it fair someone doesn't get into medicine because they did badly at economics?

Exactly but for economics isn't compulsory...
I hated English as a subject thought in school and was never any good at it but I never complained ...
Oh it's not fair that I have to do this subject cause I find it difficult..
English is compulsory too but you just get on with it and try your best..

And I know some of you are gona come back with you need English blah blah blah.. Yes you do but just conversational English and to write and read it.. you don't need to learn Shakespeare ect to get on in life and will more than likely never use it again

[pineapple stu]

I thought Irish had to be one of the 6, along with English and Maths (maybe just specific to the medical schools). Difference is you can drop economics, you can't drop Irish....

Nope. I did pass Irish and discarded it. I think you have to pass pass Irish though. If you fail pass Irish (and let's be honest - how could you?), then you're in trouble all right - I think you can't get into 99% of courses with a fail in Pass Irish. Same if you do Foundation Irish.

The Economics was just an example. You could make a bad subject choice, or the exam could go badly. If you want to include compulsory subjects, is it fair if someone doesn't get into medicine because they don't appreciate the finer points of Shakespeare and Keats?

[Macy]

The Economics was just an example. You could make a bad subject choice, or the exam could go badly. If you want to include compulsory subjects, is it fair if someone doesn't get into medicine because they don't appreciate the finer points of Shakespeare and Keats?

I suppose you're right, cosidering the standards of doctors writing on perscriptions....

[Poor Student]

Aw diddums. If something's hard, it's not worth doing? Have you ever stopped to consider how hard English is? No, because you pick it up naturally as a kid. Foreigners have trouble with it, though. Do native Irish speakers (over the past couple of thousand years) ever consider how hard Irish is? No, for the same reason. There are many many harder languages than Irish, but people - especially young kids - have a remarkable knack for learning. But then they get old and lazy...

English is considered a simplistic language by foreigners which is among the if not the easiest to learn. Irish is not that hard a language, for example it only has 3 tenses. However it is an inflective language and is quite different to English. It is not apparent to us and is often badly explained. It cannot be assumed that we all have a decent basis in it by the age of 12 to carry on with more complex matters in secondary. When I went to secondary we had vastly varying levels depending on primary school. Some like mine did at least an hour a day, others treated it exotically and did it less frequently than daily. Some people are very behind in the language by the time they get to secondary not knowing their verbs and the likes.

[Poor Student]

Nope. I did pass Irish and discarded it. I think you have to pass pass Irish though. If you fail pass Irish (and let's be honest - how could you?), then you're in trouble all right - I think you can't get into 99% of courses with a fail in Pass Irish. Same if you do Foundation Irish.

The Economics was just an example. You could make a bad subject choice, or the exam could go badly. If you want to include compulsory subjects, is it fair if someone doesn't get into medicine because they don't appreciate the finer points of Shakespeare and Keats?

We have a crap system. What can you say? I think for your A-Levels in Britain you just choose 3 sujects and any three at all, you just hope they're releveant for what you are doing. A far better idea to specialise in your interests at that age than have subjects forced on you up to the age of 18.

[BohDiddley]

Watched it as a neutral and I have to say I thought TG4 did a great job. Half-time discussion (what I caught of it) seemed intelligent and less formulaic than Setanta etc. Good match -- came across really well on the box, apart from the excitement over the usual brain-deads who got only a couple of seconds of fame.
Watching football in the first national tongue has the added advantage that when the game gets boring you can pass the time testing/congratulating yourself on comprehension.

[Cosmo]

Kids are idiots. Kids at 14 or 15 don't have a clue about their future life.

Depends on the person though - what about kids that are more into practical stuff who find learning from a textbook tough as it is never mind having to tackle the irish language?

And in fariness at 14/ 15 I was old enough to know that Irish would be of no benefit to me after school and the amount of studying that had to be done in it was very disproportionate to studying time for other subjects - thought at the time it was a waste of time and still do (but maybe ive never grown up )

Seriously, I think it would be great if we were all going around nattering in irish but today i think students in secondary school should be given a choice on if they want to keep doing it seen as very few people speak it.

[pineapple stu]

English is considered a simplistic language by foreigners which is among the if not the easiest to learn.

It's a relatively simple language, possibly among the simplest, yes. But that doesn't mean it is simple. Many foreigners - German speakers for example - have huge trouble with the fact that there are no genders in English, or that there is no declination of the word "the". In German, "the" can be "der", "die", "das", "den" or "dem", depending on the case and gender of the relative word.

Languages, by definition, though are complicated. They have to be when you consider that they describe everything which can happen. To dismiss a language because it's hard is silly.

However it is an inflective language and is quite different to English. It is not apparent to us and is often badly explained.

Definitely. Something the Department of Education really need to look at. That said, some phrases in English-Irish are unique to Ireland - "I'm after leaving my book at home", "Myself and Joe went to the game" for example - the reason being that they are literal translations of the Irish ("Táimse tar éis mo leabhar a fágáil sa bhaile" and "Chuas Seósaif agus mé féin go dtí on cluiche"). Those phrases look normal to us, but (apparently) would be frowned upon/would confuse English speakers abroad. Similarly with words like "Sláinte" or "amadán". So it isn't as hard as it first seems either.

The Government's record on promoting Irish is very poor though. There are many simple ways you could encourage the cúpla focal. Change road signs, for example. Why have "Stop" signs when you can have "Stad"? Why have "Yield" when you can have "Géill Slí"? The shape and colour is a world-wide standard, so no-body'd be particularly confused.

[pineapple stu]

I think for your A-Levels in Britain you just choose 3 sujects and any three at all, you just hope they're releveant for what you are doing. A far better idea to specialise in your interests at that age than have subjects forced on you up to the age of 18.

I don't agree, to be honest. Better to get a broad education until you're 18 and then specialise. How many people know what they want to be at 14/15?

And in fariness at 14/ 15 I was old enough to know that Irish would be of no benefit to me

So was I. Maybe I'm just older and wiser than you.

[Éanna]

Thats it exactly - In schools,French and German and other languages are taught in a modern way that keeps kids interested , with Irish they are forced to learn things over and Over
Peig Sayers should be in a classic litrature or for people who do Irish outside of schools cos it has nothing whatsoever to do with teaching a language....If they spruced up the way its taught,you'd be surprised how quick it would catch on .....

spot on

[Poor Student]

Languages, by definition, though are complicated. They have to be when you consider that they describe everything which can happen. To dismiss a language because it's hard is silly.

Well yes and no. Some people are naturally untalented for languages and secondly due to our awful teaching in English we lack the sufficient knowledge to tackle a language. When you consider these two things it is unfair to not have the choice not to take a language. You know yoourself, some people are so bad at Irish they genuinely have to get the exemption.

Those phrases look normal to us, but (apparently) would be frowned upon/would confuse English speakers abroad. Similarly with words like "Sláinte" or "amadán". So it isn't as hard as it first seems either.

There's no would be about it. Gaeilge syntax and such thing have been imported into our dialect Hiberno-English. However some of the syntax is still quite different. For example "I went to the shops in order to buy the book", "Chuaigh mé go dtí na siopaí chun an labhair a cheannach" (please correct me if I'm wrong). Literally "Went I to the shops in order book to buy". Hard things to grasp if you have neither the inclination or the ability.

The Government's record on promoting Irish is very poor though. There are many simple ways you could encourage the cúpla focal. Change road signs, for example. Why have "Stop" signs when you can have "Stad"? Why have "Yield" when you can have "Géill Slí"? The shape and colour is a world-wide standard, so no-body'd be particularly confused.

The government's approach has been poor since the formation of the state. These token things you suggest are useless though. If anything they would confuse the even increasing non-Irish speaking contingent in the state. One thing that is necessary is a thorough teaching of English grammar and structure to give us the framework to understand other languages.

[Poor Student]

I don't agree, to be honest. Better to get a broad education until you're 18 and then specialise. How many people know what they want to be at 14/15?

It's phases if you ask me. You're wise enough to know what to specialise in at 14/15 then wiser at 18 to choose a future deciding degree. I wasted my time with a lot of subjects I had no interest in for the last few years of secondary that had advanced to a difficult enough level to make them a chore and annoyance.

[Dodge]

For some bizarre reason we are adding languages like Chinese, Arabic and Russian to the Leaving Cert which mainly end up benefiting minorities. If you look at the results in such minority languages there is a huge success rate as immigrant families are picking up A1s in these subjects with ease, while natives often struggle to scrape a pass in our alleged native tongue.

This is not a racist or immigrant rant, just something I observed when looking at results in these subjects.

Have a friend who's a primary school teacher and she says in her class the "non national" (for want of a better word) children are generally excellent at learning Irish. She reckons its an amage thing. They don't think irish is "stupid and pointless" so they just get on with learning it

[Poor Student]

Have a friend who's a primary school teacher and she says in her class the "non national" (for want of a better word) children are generally excellent at learning Irish. She reckons its an amage thing. They don't think irish is "stupid and pointless" so they just get on with learning it

There's a higher and higher % of people not taking Irish and that's partly due to more non-natives coming through the education system.

[bigmac]

Just wondering, why are we not having this conversation about Maths? It's compulsary but very few people use more than primary level addition/subtraction/multiplication etc. When was the last time you calculated the derivative of a function? Or applied probability theory to your racing bets? I happen to work in a field where I use mathematics day in and day out, but why do the same arguments about Irish not apply for Maths? How come you need to pass Maths to get a place studying English in University? For some reason, Irish seems to be a much more divisive subject matter.
Personally, I hated Irish but I still think it should be compulsary. But I also think that up to Junior Cert Science should also be compulsary, along with Business Studies, History and Geography. You should also be required to study another foreign language. Incidentally, people who already speak a second language find it easier to learn a third. Also, for EU jobs, Irish counts as a separate language when applying. Therefore, Irish people, who usually would have French or German as well, can apply with three languages.

[Ambaiste!]

I can't imagine Irish EVER gets used by the law unless some looper decides to be irritating by demanding all procedures are carried out in the language.

What an ignorant statement. Men were put up against the wall and shot so we could have the right to speak our language. No one should be belittled or labelled a "looper" for exercising this right.

Could you imagine a French or German person giving out because people want to conduct their business in their native language?

As steve said above, only in Ireland....

[ORPCS]

Irish was optional at my school. Had the choice of German, Spanish or Irish. I Chose Spanish. I have no regrets cos most of the Irish teachers at our school were nuns, gimps, retards or all of the above. As soon as the Irish language reaches out beyond Shinners, begorahs and boggers ... I'll consider learning the language.

As for the minor fracas at the Brandywell on Saturday night.... well it was nothing compared to all 17 yr olds running around the Guildhall Square and Strand Rd thinking they were all Al Capone after 11pm on Saturday night in Derry (just like any other provincial Irish town on a Sat night).

[OneRedArmy]

As for the minor fracas at the Brandywell on Saturday night.... well it was nothing compared to all 17 yr olds running around the Guildhall Square and Strand Rd thinking they were all Al Capone after 11pm on Saturday night in Derry (just like any other provincial Irish town on a Sat night).

.....which in turn is nothing compared to what passes for a nights entertainment in North Belfast.

Anyway, as away fan tickets for the League match in a few weeks will be distributed only through the club, it will be interesting to see who Rovers give the tickets to.

[ORPCS]

Anyway, as away fan tickets for the League match in a few weeks will be distributed only through the club, it will be interesting to see who Rovers give the tickets to.

Derry will sell tickets for that match to whoever wants one from that shop beside the Bluebell.

As for the trouble in Derry town centre being small compared to North Belfast on a Saturday night - incorrect at least 50 out of 52 weeks of the year.

The 1 minute fracas at the Brandywell was only considered newsworthy because it was Rovers.

[mypost]

Dutch is no use to the Dutch outside Holland, Hungarian is no use to the Hungarians outside Hungary, etc., etc. and yet those languages thrive. In fact, most languages are no use to the locals outside of their country. That's an invalid argument, I think.

The difference is, Dutch is the everyday language of Holland, there is a reason why people there need it. You need to speak Dutch if you want to live and work in Holland. Do you need Irish to live here? No. Do you need to speak it to work here? Usually no. That's the difference. Irish is a language of convenience only. That's why kids are not interested in learning it, as they rarely need it.