20 Teams, 2 Divisions, 1 National League

[pineapple stu]

Don't think so. Osam just has a physiotherapy degree I think (per his clinic's site anyway). Collins has a Master's per LinkedIn.

[Nesta99]

I'd be surprised if any HEI entered it. Too much scrutiny on finances after dodgy property deals in UL, and UCC and TU Dublin running large deficits. The final bill for creating the TU sector hasn't come in yet and I'd be suprised if only TU Dublin was in debt. There'd be war with the unions if half a million was set aside to enter a team while classes of students paying anything up to 15k pa (more in some cases) are being taught by non-tenured (and never likely to be) lecturers paid by the hour.

Out of interest, Nesta, do you have any idea what a scholarship might be worth? My (limited) knowledge of the model would see fee waivers and access to coaching and facilities as the HEI's major financial input, but not necessarily payments to athletes.

Im not sure if any use EG as I'm well out of the loop but maybe still is something of a guide. Diferent local authorities and (private) scholarship all differed. It differs for sports and institutions too but ball park in olden days (mid noughties) when councils paid educational grants and scholarships needed to be declared - GAA scholarships were graded up to €8k, county level players getting most (top players had fringe academic benefits ie passed even with non submissions/attendance so could be on a scholarship but lose fees grant - was messy), finances allocated for the womens game were often partly allocated so mens funding could be added to so wasnt always a straight forward answer or formally done/declared. Funding tended to be from institutes' own budget and provided by Croke Park + wealthy county boards, so a county player from Louth in the DCU Sigerson Cup team could be on less than a Meath player or Dub if on anything at all.

Soccer was €3k average, much less schoarships available and would differ with the highly coveted elite places at UCD. Local funding generally, Cooperation Ireland for border regions, I dont recall much FAI input. Rugby was expenses level stuff but they provided the most proper coachees/dprovinical development officers. Fees were not generally waived or paid out of or by scholarship when that money could still be transferred from one govt entity to another eg Carlow IT wouldnt have waived fees for a chap that would get a grant from LouthCoCo. If the student wasnt getting a grant then fees would be part of the scholarship or waived. There was some free accomadation involved but rent wasnt the issue it is now.

Current figures are probably much higher but as are costs. Id say they are run better, no rigging passing moudles having not spent a day in class, budgets properly accounted for and allocated as intended. SUSI is better set up to deal with fee waivers v fees grants etc. Im not sure thaere are any soccer scholarships bar UCD, maybe some local schemes. Rugby has made most impact imo, expenses + providing coaches seemed to hit the balance where significant scholarships from GAA well lads were banjaxing themselves with drink and not keeping up the academics but this is properly tracked now.

Not sure its that ramble is any use bar an idea of what it was like and that its been tidied up. Id love to see Rovers setup for their academy, curriculum, academic/training balance, them knowing the scholarship options inside out or keeping players away from scholarships, on theor own books but lettig the kids get to uni too. Only way forward to full talent development imo and need replicating by clubs in conjunctions with schools and colleges/TUs.

Interestingly DkIT hasNT merged with other ITs to form a TU, they have a memorandum of understanding with NUI Maynooth and that seems to be the route taken to get University status - whether as a campus of Maynooth or whether a new name will be put un the merged institution - NUI Dundalk....

[EatYerGreens]

True, but they were already in the system so unless they withdrew the choice was made for them.

Either they could field a team in Summer football after the change was made, or they couldn't. The fact that they continued in the league both then and ever since suggests that it wasn't really an issue for them.

[EatYerGreens]

Interestingly DkIT hasNT merged with other ITs to form a TU, they have a memorandum of understanding with NUI Maynooth and that seems to be the route taken to get University status - whether as a campus of Maynooth or whether a new name will be put un the merged institution - NUI Dundalk....

Isn't that because DkIT was the odd one out - with no obvious potential partner?

[Eminence Grise]

More complicated than that, EYG, and too much to go into without dragging this off-topic. The early running was for a BMW TU but it didn't get traction for a host of reasons.

It was hard enough to merge ITs into TUs, but merging a 'traditional' university with an IT will be an achievement up there with splitting the atom! Different staff contracts, pay scales and titles; TUI in DKIT, IFUT in MU; the percentage of PhD qualified staff in DkIT below the requirement for merger with another IT, never mind a university where a lecturer without a PhD is a rarity. The new DkIT president is a savvy operator, but any merger will be a take-over by MU - there certainly won't be a Maynooth Technological University!

[Nesta99]

I prefer a takeover and become part of a traditional university rather than a TU. Cant really see NUI Maynnooth Dundalk Campus title, just sounds fussy. NUIMD? It will take serious time to meet academic staffing minimums, + number of research progrmmes never mind the admin kind of alignment of payscales, job titles. In time! and could be the move of the old ITs in to the University sector rather than TU, as little like St Pats in to DCU.

[Eminence Grise]

Done right, the TU sector has an awful lot to offer and does a lot of stuff better than the traditional universities. MU-DkIT is an intersting space to watch, and I don't want to be too mischievious by suggesting that all three TU Dublin campuses are closer to DkIT than MU is!

Anyway, back on topic. Would any team from Maynooth have ambitions to enter a national league - a town club or the university? I know it's not everything but the population base is there. Maybe the pontifical university is holding out for the priests' over 75 league!

[EatYerGreens]

I prefer a takeover and become part of a traditional university rather than a TU. Cant really see NUI Maynnooth Dundalk Campus title, just sounds fussy. NUIMD? It will take serious time to meet academic staffing minimums, + number of research progrmmes never mind the admin kind of alignment of payscales, job titles. In time! and could be the move of the old ITs in to the University sector rather than TU, as little like St Pats in to DCU.

Dunooth Uni? University of Maydalk?

I'll get my coat...

[Nesta99]

In a widly speculative way, a propper football scholarship at DkIT (preferably with Maynooth), and a sde that playes in a senior regional league system is something that Dundalk FC should not miss out on with a direct of affiliate role that can be used as a B team and senior player development between U19 and 1st team. Conflict of interests could be ironed out with some creative thinking.



Its is off topic but still interesting, is another TU needed in whatever form in Dundalk, duplication of courses with Dublin counterparts. A university campus of NUIM can take pressure off rent issues for students and reduce commute impact in the North East/Dublin, as much due to people heading north during the peak commute south to Dublin and visa versa, some of the benfits of the TU sector could be kept for students that need that pathway. A University campus would also attract more interest from N.I. opening up H.E. partnership opportunities cross border that can access significant funding. Major potential in a competative sector that can be unique rather than regional duplication. Additional access to funding could lead to campus development like dusting off the DkIT plans for a stadium, all ancilliary infrastructure exists including TV studios, parking, catering, off M1 etc and Oriel Park + environs are fine for womens and underage pitch capacity. Joined up thinking rather than piecemeal duplication. Even LouthCoCo might want a piece of the action with a heavy hitter of the university sector. One can dream but it does tick an awful lot of boxes, from community development, Higher Ed, climate action and sporting infrastructure, for reasonable financial outlay not all out of the public purse!

[nr637]

The new proposed 3rd Tier has really created plenty of conversation within clubs across the country. Now with the move to Summer soccer being implemented, many progressive clubs will really have to consider their future in regards to their development plans. I am really excited to see how the structure of this new National League advances and what clubs apply!
It's a really exciting time for domestic football and fans not only for the Airtricity League in 2025!

[Buckett]

I think the sensible thing to do, while supporting the LOI, is not to get your hopes up or get too excited about anything the FAI says

[Nesta99]

In this regard I dont think a major fail will be due to the FAI and more with resistance from the junior game to come to heel. If it does happen and that powerbase has it's will broken then we could see almost an expotential progress of change across the game.

[Buckett]

But if there's no prizemoney worth the risk for the junior clubs to move then it's the FAI's fault

[Nesta99]

Is there any prizemoney of significance now?

[Buckett]

No, so if it's less than the 1st Division, what chance is there?

[yurt]

I think the sensible thing to do, while supporting the LOI, is not to get your hopes up or get too excited about anything the FAI says

Sensible advice. I would just say from my point of view anyway that managing to get the summer football proposal passed with a majority vote was a major achievement by the FAI. I would say my belief in the FAI has gone from none to some in the past couple months.

I expect this additional tier to take at least an additional year from the current proposed start date but if we have an aligned calendar and some semblance of an actual pyramid by 2030 I would say that it is a job OK done.

[Nesta99]

No, so if it's less than the 1st Division, what chance is there?

So something will be better than the current status quo! Id expect prizemoney to be announced but it wont be massive considering its sh1t for Premier winners. These things will only happen in stages. As a starting point, a regionalised tier III, will have more prestige with winning potentially giving access to the highest level of the game. Bring regioalised is unlikely to add to travel costs and any additiona costs a club takes on eg signing players on any more than expenses or what they do now will be of their own doing and not a necessity. Absolutely the fiancial carrot will ease the way, improve interest but there is more to it than just money.

[Buckett]

So something will be better than the current status quo! Id expect prizemoney to be announced but it wont be massive considering its sh1t for Premier winners. These things will only happen in stages. As a starting point, a regionalised tier III, will have more prestige with winning potentially giving access to the highest level of the game. Bring regioalised is unlikely to add to travel costs and any additiona costs a club takes on eg signing players on any more than expenses or what they do now will be of their own doing and not a necessity. Absolutely the fiancial carrot will ease the way, improve interest but there is more to it than just money.

Doing it in stages? The prizemoney is terrible and there's only two divisions. Took them 60 years to add the second tier. How people defend the association is beyond me.

Being regionalised won't reduce costs too much. You won't have Donegal teams playing Cork teams but a Mayo team playing in Louth would still be paying close to €1k for a bus.

[EalingGreen]

But if there's no prizemoney worth the risk for the junior clubs to move then it's the FAI's fault

When it comes to "fault", it shouldn't be an either/or. Rather it should be for both the FAI to create the right environment and the clubs then to seize the opportunity.

Re the former, I don't see how this proposal is fit for purpose, since it is both too big a step-up for the average Intermediate club to envisage; while for those clubs who do get admitted, the step-up from there to the First Division is likely to great as well. In that sense, it can hardly be called a pyramid, esp if half the teams (more?) may need to be LOI Reserve teams.

And as for the latter, if clubs have to rely on prize money to sustain a place at this level, then that won't work, either. For such money could only come from sponsorship (can't see that ever amounting to anything at that level) or from the FAI. And with the FAI struggling to provide decent prize money for the top two tiers, itself insufficient, how are they going to find extra for up to 20 new teams?

Besides, as a matter of principle, clubs shouldn't have to rely on prize money (i.e. a handout) to exist, even if it was available. For in the end, if a club is to be sustainable beyond purely amateur level, it has to be able to raise revenue from its own resources. Obviously the basic should be gate money, which means it must be grounded in its community/catchment area in order to generate support at an appropriate level. Following on from this it means having a stadium fit to be able to charge a reasonable amount (as well as offering a higher standard of football, obviously).

So that from that basis, the club can then hope to raise matchday revenue from bars and restaurants etc, plus maybe even non-matchday revenues from lotteries, social club, commercial and events etc. This in turn can lead to further revenue from sponsorship and local businesses as they wish to be associated with a thriving local club etc.

Of course, all of this takes enormous time and effort over years, even decades, from volunteers and community members, with the point being that you start this process incrementally from the ground up, rather than seeking to build from the top down (i.e. a 3rd tier).

Which is where the FAI comes back in, by offering a long term vision and format, with suitable support and resources, to encourage the most ambitious clubs with the most potential to set out on the long journey.

EDIT: One further element I ommitted to mention is that ambitious local clubs can also often hope to attract a wealthy benefactor, keen to suppport his/her local club. But that can only happen if they can see genuine potential for the club to progress, rather than it being a mere money pit. Which again comes back to vision, format and process from the FAI.

[Nesta99]

Doing it in stages? The prizemoney is terrible and there's only two divisions. Took them 60 years to add the second tier. How people defend the association is beyond me.

Being regionalised won't reduce costs too much. You won't have Donegal teams playing Cork teams but a Mayo team playing in Louth would still be paying close to €1k for a bus.

Defend the association? Where pray tell? My point on regionalising, will there be additional costs to particpate eg travel. Are you an old junior blazer that is reluctanly realising their new place in the football system?