20 Teams, 2 Divisions, 1 National League

[ForeForeToo]

Yes, it would.

Let's not kid ourselves that other clubs aren't getting Council support too. Would Bray be sustainable if they had to pay market rent for the Carlisle and not a peppercorn rent for example? I think Waterford and Derry get good deals on their rent too.

And it's good to see organisations like that supporting the league too

Stu, this chap exists on here to put the LOI down.

[nr637]

No, it started as a response to my post that I didn't believe there 67 clubs interested because very few publicly said they were interested and then you started using social media "sources"(ffs!) as fact.

So, why did the FAI reveal that 67 clubs were interested and I mentioned there was a lot of speculation on clubs social media forums and outlets because that's how information is spread now!

[nr637]

nr637 and some others are obviously enthusiastic and passionate about the expansion of the senior game, if we got a € for every time pyramid was mentioned we'd all have a nice earner. In the absence of any concrete info speculation is all there is and why not, its harmless. Ive mentioned a few Ive heard but was I sitting in committee meetings when the issue was discussed, nope, but I do know a few people that are involved in the admin of local sides that are usually on the ball. Under the circumstances and the very surprising report of 67 interested clubs its a little harsh to come down on posters that excitedly guestimate on who many of those clubs out of left field might be. We all struggled to think of where we'd get 20 sides not so long ago.

UCD as an example was an error but sub in Maynooth. UCD is also a bona fide LoI club associated with the university but would function indpendently if the university decided to cut ties. Thankfully the University see the LoI club as an asset, they could do more even imo by maybe having The Bowl prioritised for the LoI side rather than wrecking the pitch with other sports that dont need spectator facilities of note.

I like your post, hope a few more read it!

[kksaints]

Klub Kildare are definitely interested according to the Kildare Nationalist.

[pineapple stu]

While I accept your criticism, I think you will find that a debate is about opposing views

Yes, but not all views are equal. When one view is refuted (eg UCD aren't an option for the third tier), that should be acknowledged

[Nesta99]

Yes, but not all views are equal. When one view is refuted (eg UCD aren't an option for the third tier), that should be acknowledged

I felt it was a naive example made by a newcomer to the LoI fold due to the entry of Kerry or maybe some other potentil new member. I dont think it negates other speculation. I forget about Finn Harps all the time when listing clubs (its now more mischief) but I certainly dont have any aissue with Harpsm fans or intend disrespect....with the exception of the peculiararities of the ground the development but it wa the same with Tallaght.

Is it really anti LoI posting??? If there are examples Ive missed than Id change my opinion.

[EalingGreen]

Stu, this chap exists on here to put the LOI down.

Why not play the ball instead of the man?

You could start by quoting posts of mine which display such a motive.

(I say "posts", but even one would do.. )

[ForeForeToo]

Why not play the ball instead of the man?

You could start by quoting posts of mine which display such a motive.

(I say "posts", but even one would do.. )

I am entitled to express my opinion without having to demonstrate anything to you. I will respectfully decline to meet your demands on where I should start.

[legendz]

Klub Kildare are definitely interested according to the Kildare Nationalist.

Good for them. Mayo, CK and Kildare have competed in the academy leagues. The only ones really with a visible intent on joining an LoI pathway.

From a strategic point of view for expanding the academy leagues to more areas, possibly only three stand out?:
• Meath
• Offaly & Laois
• Monaghan & Cavan

Areas which are possibly ok with neighbouring regions:
° Clare towards Treaty.
° North Tipperary towards Treaty.
° South Tipperary towards Waterford.
° North Roscommon & Leitrim towards Sligo?
° South Roscommon towards Athlone?

While the National League sounds great, three non LoI regions are in the academy leagues already (Mayo, Kildare and Carlow/Kilkenny) and there are probably only three more non LoI regions that would ideally join the academy leagues (Meath, Offaly/Laois and Cavan/Monaghan).

[EalingGreen]

I am entitled to express my opinion without having to demonstrate anything to you. I will respectfully decline to meet your demands on where I should start.

The vacuity of that response brings to mind the old adage: "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt."

[Elfman]

nr637 and some others are obviously enthusiastic and passionate about the expansion of the senior game, if we got a € for every time pyramid was mentioned we'd all have a nice earner... In the absence of any concrete info speculation is all there is and why not, its harmless. Under the circumstances and the very surprising report of 67 interested clubs its a little harsh to come down on posters that excitedly guestimate on who many of those clubs out of left field might be. We all struggled to think of where we'd get 20 sides not so long ago.

Here, here. Well said Nesta.

[Elfman]

From a strategic point of view for expanding the academy leagues to more areas, possibly only three stand out?:
• Meath
• Offaly & Laois
• Monaghan & Cavan

Areas which are possibly ok with neighbouring regions:
° Clare towards Treaty.
° North Tipperary towards Treaty.
° South Tipperary towards Waterford.
° North Roscommon & Leitrim towards Sligo?
° South Roscommon towards Athlone?

While the National League sounds great, three non LoI regions are in the academy leagues already (Mayo, Kildare and Carlow/Kilkenny) and there are probably only three more non LoI regions that would ideally join the academy leagues (Meath, Offaly/Laois and Cavan/Monaghan).

To use your amateur vs elite pyramid theory, and with the alleged high interest from clubs, I think there's an opportunity here to work on the academy leagues:

If the FAI favour applications to the NL from clubs with existing underage teams, they could create a separate National Underage League. This would have shorter distances due to the North/South divide and could be used as criteria for promotion to FD.

Not enough clubs with underage teams? No problem, but you won't get promoted until you meet the criteria. Finish bottom? Back to your old league and offer it to the next club off the rank so they can have a crack.

[nr637]

Yes, but not all views are equal. When one view is refuted (eg UCD aren't an option for the third tier), that should be acknowledged

If you had read previous post, I did acknowledge "Fair enough, it may have been Dublin University so, that I read somewhere were showing interest according to some social media sources."
As for views some are right, some are wrong and most are somewhere in-between, if not we will just have to agree to disagree!

[Kiki Balboa]

Good for them. Mayo, CK and Kildare have competed in the academy leagues. The only ones really with a visible intent on joining an LoI pathway.

Meath and a Cavan/Monaghan team have also competed at LOI underage too.

[legendz]

To use your amateur vs elite pyramid theory, and with the alleged high interest from clubs, I think there's an opportunity here to work on the academy leagues:

If the FAI favour applications to the NL from clubs with existing underage teams, they could create a separate National Underage League. This would have shorter distances due to the North/South divide and could be used as criteria for promotion to FD.

Not enough clubs with underage teams? No problem, but you won't get promoted until you meet the criteria. Finish bottom? Back to your old league and offer it to the next club off the rank so they can have a crack.

I'm not enthused by the National League but I think it is probably the only option. If there was to be a Third Tier with clubs who have LoI academies, it would probably only consist of Shamrock Rovers II, Mayo, CK and Kildare.
The National League should be a good step towards eventually having a pathway from district leagues. I'm not convinced about it being a pathway to the LoI but it's the only practical way currently to get some Third Tier and pathway off the ground.

[EatYerGreens]

I'm not enthused by the National League but I think it is probably the only option. If there was to be a Third Tier with clubs who have LoI academies, it would probably only consist of Shamrock Rovers II, Mayo, CK and Kildare.
The National League should be a good step towards eventually having a pathway from district leagues. I'm not convinced about it being a pathway to the LoI but it's the only practical way currently to get some Third Tier and pathway off the ground.

I think this is probably a fair analysis.

We all know what type of pyramid Irish football would have in a perfect world. But the world of Irish football is far from perfect. You have to start every journey from where you are, not where you'd ideally like to be, so this - plus the move to Summer football throughout the junior and intermediate tiers - seem like reasonable enough steps to begin constructing a pyramid that is rooted in our reality.

[Elfman]

I think we're all in agreement there. Most of us have probably been burned too many times not to be a little sceptical but I feel better knowing the changes are being done bit by bit - feels more likely to stick than one massive change.

Just on the academies piece Legendz, what does an academy look like to you? Is it just a few underage teams, a team at every age group or a seperate entity from the men's team although?

I'm also genuinely curious to know where, ideally, people here see the bottom rung of the ladder to begin the reforms. Provincial leagues, County leagues or regional leagues, where would you start?

[EatYerGreens]

I'm also genuinely curious to know where, ideally, people here see the bottom rung of the ladder to begin the reforms. Provincial leagues, County leagues or regional leagues, where would you start?

The problem is we have a lack of uniformity in structures across the country. If you go to England they have district leagues, county leagues, combined county leagues, and then the long-standing leagues above that like the Isthmian, Spartan, Southern etc. With a clear flow between them all. They also have individual county FAs, so clear responsibility for which structure a particular club should be part of. You could start a football team in Engalnd tomorrow, get accepted to join a particular league from this Summer, and you'll automatically know which tier in the pyramid that team is (e.g. level 14).

We don't have any of that in Ireland. We don't have the equivalent of district leagues, some of which straddke counties. We don't have county FAs. We don't have county leagues covering all of their county, and we don't even have provincial leagues.

Given Ireland is a very county-focused place, it would probably make sense to have county leagues which then feed into regional or provincial leagues. What we have currently is a bit of a mess, and getting the entire country converted over to one standardised unifr system so there is a clear pipeline will be a challenge (but not impossible).

So to answer you're question - I have no idea where the bottom of the pyramid should be

[Elfman]

So to answer you're question - I have no idea where the bottom of the pyramid should be

Haha you're far too humble EYG, I thought that was a great answer! I was under the impression that this was our (much messier) quasi pyramid:

National: LOI
Provincial: LSL & MSL
County: Kerry District League, Mayo Super League, etc.
Regional: West Cork League, North Tipperary & District Soccer League, etc.

There's obviously outliers across counties (e.g. Monaghan Cavan League or West Waterford East Cork League) but I thought we could just pick a level and say "let's start here". To take one example, I know that Galway has its own FA and its district league only has Galway clubs (I swear I read somewhere that clubs playing in leagues with the word 'district' in the title meant that they could recruit from anywhere inside the county) but it sounds like that's not widespread.

So my suggestion for reform would be to start at what I've called regional level (arbitrary locations that have local attachment such as West Cork) and then build up from there with FAs at every level e.g. West Cork, East Cork/West Waterford & various Cork City leagues -> one Cork county league -> Munster Senior League -> LOI

[legendz]

Just on the academies piece Legendz, what does an academy look like to you? Is it just a few underage teams, a team at every age group or a seperate entity from the men's team although?

Tbh, once a club has teams in the academy leagues I'm calling it their academy.
Academies need to be graded. I think that is something the FAI are supposed to be looking. Tier 1, 2 and 3 academies or something like that. There's not enough full time coaches and major investment is needed in facilities. Where does anyone start? Contact hours etc.
Nationally then how players per age group realistically are good enough for professional football and how can they get the coaching required? Do these players need to gravitate towards a select few academies?