Republic of Ireland v Greece - Tuesday, 10th September 2024 - UEFA Nations League

[Eirambler]

O' Neill also had a considerably better team to work with, and I think relative quality/experience of squads is the thing often left out of managerial comparisons.

Did he though?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2016_squads

Bear in mind that Shay Given was 40 and Keane and O'Shea were on their last legs as well. Was that squad really that much better than what we have now?

My view is that, while we don't have an outstanding team by any means, we have enough to be doing a lot better than we are. But we've gone down the wrong road in terms of playing style for four years and you can't turn it on and off like a tap. We might or might not now be on the start of a journey back in the right direction, there's nothing else for it right now other than to wait it out and hope things get better over time. We all know the goal here is Euro 2028, not 2026.

[Stuttgart88]

Heimir's latest take, quite interesting.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soc...g-behind-that/

Gavin Cummiskey

Heimir Hallgrímsson: ‘We need to play better. I’m not hiding behind that’
Ireland have lost 11 of their last 14 competitive matches after defeat to Greece

A Greek journalist in the Aviva Stadium on Tuesday night could not believe his ears, turning around and asking incredulously, “Did the announcer just name Will Smallbone as man of the match?”. “Yes, but not really,” we explained. “It’s so the national broadcaster can interview an Irish player on the pitch at full-time. Sure, Chiedozie Ogbene won it against England.” The visiting correspondent had already turned around to inform his colleagues who laughed at the latest, ridiculous occurrence connected to Irish football.

About an hour later, Republic of Ireland manager Heimir Hallgrímsson calmly explained how confidence levels can be rebuilt, following the worst run of senior men’s results since 1971. The Icelander only arrived in Ireland last month. The squad he inherited lost both Nations League games 2-0, to England and Greece, in three days but Hallgrímsson believes the wins will come when the players become more familiar with each other and his “principles”. Anyone watching Ireland play football these past four years could have told him this squad has been together all that time, losing 11 of their last 14 competitive matches. The 2020s are now comparable to 1946-1950, when Ireland lost 12 of 19 internationals. And 1967-1971, when the national team went 21 games without a win, losing 14.

Ancient history lessons go over Hallgrímsson’s head, but he does understand the enormity of the present-day task.

“We can all agree that Ireland doesn’t have a match winner at this stage,” he said. “We don’t have a Zlatan, Messi or Ronaldo or the high-profile players, like Wales had Gareth Bale in the past, such as Roy Keane, playing at the highest level.
“If we want to grow, it has to be collective. From there, players will gain confidence from organisation and structure.

“From defending without the ball, you can feel confident. You can control the game without the ball. Once that happens, we’ll start to get points and we’ll grow in confidence.”
Hallgrímsson continued: “Some players will hopefully be fitter [in October]. We gave Evan [Ferguson] his first minutes of the season. Hopefully that will help Brighton select him more. He will be a huge asset for us when he’s fit.

“I think we saw that Kasey McAteer is one for the future.

“Now our job is to try to find the correct players and just play them, not always rotating them.”

Hallgrímsson’s predecessor, Stephen Kenny, sold a similar line to the public after building a young squad, but his efforts to settle on a regular line-up was denied by repeat injuries to Ferguson, Ogbene and Séamus Coleman at crucial junctures. At least Kenny had the constant midfield presence of Josh Cullen and goalkeeper Gavin Bazunu, who both missed this international window through injury.

Glenn Whelan, who won 91 caps for Ireland and is currently working for the FAI as an opposition analyst, even travelling to Athens for Greece’s 3-0 defeat of Finland on Saturday, swapped his scouting job for television punditry on Tuesday.

“We shot ourselves in the foot,” Whelan told Virgin Media Sport. “Jason Knight gives the ball away and goes chasing after it, makes a mistake, followed by another mistake, which gave the Greeks a chance to press forward.

“The ball at the edge of the box, you only have to look at the amount of Irish players around the ball and no one goes to get tight, [Fotis Ioannidis] gets the shot away and we are 1-0 down.
“The disappointing thing for me, once the goal goes in, I see heads go down, arms thrown up, it is not a positive thing in this Irish team at the moment.”

Whelan suggests another “reset” by dipping into Jim Crawford’s talented under-21 squad, where Sam Curtis and Andy Moran are keeping Ireland on course to qualify for the Euros after victory in Turkey and a 2-2 draw against Latvia in Tallaght on Tuesday.

“If it is a case of looking at the 21s and bringing them lads in to change it, because there are too many lads over the last four years who have consistently lost for Ireland,” said Whelan.
Out with the new, in with the newer has already been done, with Kenny promoting an entire crop of under-21s, including Smallbone, Ferguson and Adam Idah, between 2019 and 2022.

As one FAI official confirmed, systemic problems are hurting the senior men’s team. Due to a €43.2 million debt, the Association cannot help to fund professional coaching in club academies, which is precisely where the FAI’s pathways plan, designed by its chief football officer Marc Canham, is directing elite talent.

This is above Hallgrímsson’s pay grade, as the 57-year-old was only hired on an 18-month contract. The initial job description for the “head coach” to replace Kenny, was a contract running to Euro 2028 with responsibilities to implement a style of play from underage teams into the senior squad. This idea, however, was shelved during a nine-month recruitment process led by Canham.

“I saw improvement from the England game and from what I saw before,” said Hallgrímsson. “Maybe I am being too positive, maybe you disagree, but until the [Ioannidis] goal, I was really happy.
“We need to play better. I’m not hiding behind that.”

[Stuttgart88]

I highlighted the bits I found most telling.

Whelan suggests promoting youth. Funny how he is critical of the goal. For years Whelan was criticed here while some (like me!) used to say he filled space outside our D. We used to never concede the type of goal we concede regularly these days when he was in the side.

It looks like HH will be working on us without the ball. The best example of what he's talking about was when the Swiss played here last. Like sheepdogs herding sheep they moved us around the pitch to where they wanted us - and that was when WE had the ball.

I agree with his concluding remarks.

[texidub]

In fairness, our press w/out the ball was good in the first half against Greece - It's a bare minimum requirement really, but I was relieved to see it, even if I felt sorry for Szmodics who at times was running around a lot like John Aldridge had to back in the day. It rattled the Greeks... for a while anyway.

Not judging HH one way or the other yet, but on the negative side I thought he made too many substitutions (and not necessarily great ones) the other night.

[Eirambler]

I'm not convinced that Whelan is right that promoting more youth players is the way to go here. Ones that are obviously ready should come up of course, but do we have any of those at the moment? Lawal might be the closest if he gets a run at Stoke. At this point calling up someone like Curtis or Moran would do more harm than good I'd say.

If the age of our squad is an issue it's more at the upper end than the youth players. You can basically look at the last 10 years of Irish football through the lack of quality players born 1993-1997. Firstly we had no good young players coming through, this was evident as far back as Euro 2016 and during the McCarthy 2.0 era. Then we had a lopsided squad with loads of young players and loads of older players, but a shortage of players at the peak of their careers, aged 25-29. This was a big issue during the Kenny era. Now we're starting to move on to the next issue, not having the experienced older heads to drive standards on and off the field, avoid mistakes with their experience etc. This could be the story for the next two or three years, or maybe longer.

It's a depressing thought, but we probably won't have a good age mix in our squad again until the likes of O'Shea, Kelleher, Ogbene and Molumby are seen as the older lads steering the ship. But in the meantime we're going to have to make the best of what we have, as adding more youth will just mean adding more inexperience to an already inexperienced squad.

[Acornvilla]

Did he though?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2016_squads

Bear in mind that Shay Given was 40 and Keane and O'Shea were on their last legs as well. Was that squad really that much better than what we have now?

My view is that, while we don't have an outstanding team by any means, we have enough to be doing a lot better than we are. But we've gone down the wrong road in terms of playing style for four years and you can't turn it on and off like a tap. We might or might not now be on the start of a journey back in the right direction, there's nothing else for it right now other than to wait it out and hope things get better over time. We all know the goal here is Euro 2028, not 2026.

He was manager from 2013 onwards, not just that one summer, but even then yes that 2016 summer squad had a far superior collection of options with lads playing at a decent level above what we have currently on a more consistent basis with far more experience of getting results at club and international level. We probably didn't appreciate some of those individuals for what they were and brought at the time.

pretty much any of our players at the time who were in the championship had played seasons of premier league football, or would go on to like Hendrick/Duffy. We have a bunch of midfielders right now, that we hope can do the same. We don't even have a David Meyler any more, let alone a Wes Hoolahan or Glenn Whelan. Sammy is the one who could be a real gamechanger, but he's very recent and only just hitting new peaks, we hope, Chio too. And they're much further along than they were say, 4 years ago. We've a lot of new younger lads with just PL relegation on their cv's or an inability to gain promotion.

Given wasn't even the keeper, it was Randolph who I personally don't think was as good as Bazunu/Kelleher can be, but he was a far more experienced keeper who had played plenty of games at a high level than they are right now. O' Shea played another 3 seasons after that, he wasn't at his peak, but was he better than the lads now? I'd say yes.

We had left backs, and right backs, multiple options, lads like Brady/Coleman/McClean/Ward in their prime. We've not seen the best of Coleman since his Wales injury unfortunately, it's such a pity it happened to him when he probably deserved a bigger club move.

Walters/Long have had far better careers than any of our current strikers. Evan is the big hope, but he's rarely been fit for any manager and still incredibly early in his career. Having someone like Keane as an option even past his peak is a world away from now. At the time I thought he should have been dropped, same with Given, but I think the experience of people like that now, wouldn't hurt, it's why I assume we persisted with keeping McClean around and keep trying to keep Coleman involved too even thou he can't seem to stay fit any more. We have so many potentially great forwards, but they need to play more, they need to score more, they need to stay fit and built good club careers.

The squad was far more balanced and filled with experience, with players playing at more successful clubs right throughout the team. It wasn't particularly exciting but the overall base ability and club career status of the squad was a level above bar a few exceptions. I would say the only place we're marginally stronger now is CB and Keeper, but the defense has not been carrying us by any means, they're still all potential until they actually start doing something with that tallent imo.

I think a lot of the current young players have huge potential, but they've not realized it yet, there's a lot of unrealistic expectations among the fanbase imo, and there has been for years. We constantly take for granted that guys at middling and lower premier league clubs are better than guys playing European competition and in different leagues, just because there's more money in the UK doesn't mean all the best players are willing to go there and play to win nothing and live in perpetual rain .

I think HH will find some marginal gains, but we will probably still end up in league C and that's where the rebuild can begin anew, hopefully some of that potential will finally be more than just that.

[brine3]

Did he though?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2016_squads

Bear in mind that Shay Given was 40 and Keane and O'Shea were on their last legs as well. Was that squad really that much better than what we have now?

My view is that, while we don't have an outstanding team by any means, we have enough to be doing a lot better than we are. But we've gone down the wrong road in terms of playing style for four years and you can't turn it on and off like a tap. We might or might not now be on the start of a journey back in the right direction, there's nothing else for it right now other than to wait it out and hope things get better over time. We all know the goal here is Euro 2028, not 2026.

Given shouldn't have been in the squad. Forde should have been there. Robbie Keane was also a passenger.

[Stuttgart88]

we probably won't have a good age mix in our squad again until the likes of O'Shea, Kelleher, Ogbene and Molumby are seen as the older lads steering the ship. But in the meantime we're going to have to make the best of what we have, as adding more youth will just mean adding more inexperience to an already inexperienced squad.

Wales have never been afraid to trust youth. Bellamy did again this week I think. Maybe it can be done selectively.

[Stuttgart88]

He was manager from 2013 onwards, not just that one summer, but even then yes that 2016 summer squad had a far superior collection of options with lads playing at a decent level above what we have currently on a more consistent basis with far more experience of getting results at club and international level. We probably didn't appreciate some of those individuals for what they were and brought at the time.

pretty much any of our players at the time who were in the championship had played seasons of premier league football, or would go on to like Hendrick/Duffy. We have a bunch of midfielders right now, that we hope can do the same. We don't even have a David Meyler any more, let alone a Wes Hoolahan or Glenn Whelan. Sammy is the one who could be a real gamechanger, but he's very recent and only just hitting new peaks, we hope, Chio too. And they're much further along than they were say, 4 years ago. We've a lot of new younger lads with just PL relegation on their cv's or an inability to gain promotion.

Given wasn't even the keeper, it was Randolph who I personally don't think was as good as Bazunu/Kelleher can be, but he was a far more experienced keeper who had played plenty of games at a high level than they are right now. O' Shea played another 3 seasons after that, he wasn't at his peak, but was he better than the lads now? I'd say yes.

We had left backs, and right backs, multiple options, lads like Brady/Coleman/McClean/Ward in their prime. We've not seen the best of Coleman since his Wales injury unfortunately, it's such a pity it happened to him when he probably deserved a bigger club move.

Walters/Long have had far better careers than any of our current strikers. Evan is the big hope, but he's rarely been fit for any manager and still incredibly early in his career. Having someone like Keane as an option even past his peak is a world away from now. At the time I thought he should have been dropped, same with Given, but I think the experience of people like that now, wouldn't hurt, it's why I assume we persisted with keeping McClean around and keep trying to keep Coleman involved too even thou he can't seem to stay fit any more. We have so many potentially great forwards, but they need to play more, they need to score more, they need to stay fit and built good club careers.

The squad was far more balanced and filled with experience, with players playing at more successful clubs right throughout the team. It wasn't particularly exciting but the overall base ability and club career status of the squad was a level above bar a few exceptions. I would say the only place we're marginally stronger now is CB and Keeper, but the defense has not been carrying us by any means, they're still all potential until they actually start doing something with that tallent imo.

I think a lot of the current young players have huge potential, but they've not realized it yet, there's a lot of unrealistic expectations among the fanbase imo, and there has been for years. We constantly take for granted that guys at middling and lower premier league clubs are better than guys playing European competition and in different leagues, just because there's more money in the UK doesn't mean all the best players are willing to go there and play to win nothing and live in perpetual rain .

I think HH will find some marginal gains, but we will probably still end up in league C and that's where the rebuild can begin anew, hopefully some of that potential will finally be more than just that.

When we had Walters, Long, Meyler, McClean, Ward, Whelan etc. everyone was saying "we just don't have the players"! But that almost seems like a golden generation now!

[pineapple stu]

We've never been afraid to trust youth either in fairness. Look at how many players Kenny brought through. Some are bedded in to the squad now, some aren't. Some are in a half-way house - still in the squads and we'd rather there were better players available if we're honest.

I think any suggestions we add more youth to the squad to revitalise it should address why that hasn't worked in the past 3/4 years and why it should be any different now.

[texidub]

I think Whelan's argument was that our U21s have successful habits and the senior team needs more people with positive experiences in it.

[pineapple stu]

I think there's more to football than a successful habit though.

Kenny had a good campaign as 21s manager before taking over the senior role - and then brought a fair few of those players through. Earlier than was really ideal if we're honest - partly out of necessity given the nature of the squad, and I think there was also an element of Kenny discarding some experienced players earlier than was really necessary. But roughly the same idea as we're talking about here.

But on the whole those young players weren't good enough at the time (again, some have improved since then, others have been discarded), and that's part of the reason we started to struggle so badly.

[brine3]

I wouldn't say we have better keepers now. Randolph never put a foot wrong for Ireland and had many years of first team football in both the Premier League and Championship. Bazunu and, especially Kelleher, have yet to reach that level of experience.

I think the main difference between now and 2016 is in the middle of the park, where matches are won and lost. James McCarthy was at the peak of his powers back then, as was Jeff Hendrick. The two of them were regularly playing blinders for us. And Hoolahan had finally been allowed on to the pitch...

[texidub]

I think there's more to football than a successful habit though.

Kenny had a good campaign as 21s manager before taking over the senior role - and then brought a fair few of those players through. Earlier than was really ideal if we're honest - partly out of necessity given the nature of the squad, and I think there was also an element of Kenny discarding some experienced players earlier than was really necessary. But roughly the same idea as we're talking about here.

But on the whole those young players weren't good enough at the time (again, some have improved since then, others have been discarded), and that's part of the reason we started to struggle so badly.

Yes and it's a lot of perssure to put on inexperienced players. I think back to that France match under Kenny and even the Portugal games to a lesser extent and realistically, we are not a bajillion miles from being a team that can be there or thereabouts in the last round of a qualification group. So even if I don't think it would hurt to fasttrack the likes of Lawal (club apeparances permitting) maybe it is the coaching that's the problem.

[RiffRaff]

In terms of the standard and quality of the players, its hard not to make a comparison with Norn Ireland, where O'Neill seems to be improving them. In the last year theyve beaten Denmark, Scotland and got a draw in Romania, with a mixture of kids and journeymen.

[MylesNotMiley]

I think the main difference between now and 2016 is in the middle of the park, where matches are won and lost. James McCarthy was at the peak of his powers back then, as was Jeff Hendrick. The two of them were regularly playing blinders for us. And Hoolahan had finally been allowed on to the pitch...

This is our main problem. Glen Whelan had his faults, but we don't even have a midfielder on a par with him ATM.
Josh Cullen is our best option in there, but he's a an upper Championship level player at best.

Scotland as an example.
We have a better GK, better defenders bar Robertson (Tierney & Hickey are always injured) and better options up front, but their midfield is far superior to anything we can put out - McGregor, Gilmour, McTominay, Christie & McGinn.

Until we find two half decent CMs, we're going nowhere.

[nigel-harps1954]

I wouldn't say we have better keepers now. Randolph never put a foot wrong for Ireland and had many years of first team football in both the Premier League and Championship. Bazunu and, especially Kelleher, have yet to reach that level of experience.

I think the main difference between now and 2016 is in the middle of the park, where matches are won and lost. James McCarthy was at the peak of his powers back then, as was Jeff Hendrick. The two of them were regularly playing blinders for us. And Hoolahan had finally been allowed on to the pitch...

Randolph only ever had half a season first team football in the Premier League, a year when Adrián got injured in 2016-17. Every other year he spent in the Premier League was as a backup, with very little playing time.

Spent a fair while as a decent Championship goalkeeper, but let's be honest, he overperformed as Ireland keeper when we didn't really have a whole lot of other options. Never done a lot wrong in a green jersey, but if there was a decent alternative, he'd not have as many caps as he did.

[nigel-harps1954]

This is our main problem. Glen Whelan had his faults, but we don't even have a midfielder on a par with him ATM.
Josh Cullen is our best option in there, but he's a an upper Championship level player at best.

Scotland as an example.
We have a better GK, better defenders bar Robertson (Tierney & Hickey are always injured) and better options up front, but their midfield is far superior to anything we can put out - McGregor, Gilmour, McTominay, Christie & McGinn.

Until we find two half decent CMs, we're going nowhere.

We're really relying on the likes of Jason Knight and Joe Hodge or a Bosun Lawal type to kick on in the next year or two.

[Eirambler]

Wales have never been afraid to trust youth. Bellamy did again this week I think. Maybe it can be done selectively.

I think Wales are an example of why our squad isn't in near as bad a shape player wise as many are saying.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wale..._football_team

Looking through that squad there's Williams and Davies at the back, Johnson and Wilson up front, that are Premier League players and the rest is a mishmash from the Championship and below. There's really nothing much else there and nothing much coming through either, yet it's enough for them to be a comfortable League B team and they got close to the Euros.

I do think we have a squad that is League B standard (bear in mind staying in League B only = being one of the top 28 teams in Europe, it's not a massive bar). It's also worth looking at the Finland squad who we are about to go head to head with to stay in the division.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finl..._football_team

Again, probably only three or four that would get in our team.

So I don't see any major player overhaul here - or necessarily any need for one - for now we just need to get back to a more sensible style of football and trust that the results will start to come as things gel. For me the first half on Tuesday remains the template, hopefully more time in camp through the autumn, more time of positioning and set pieces will help as well.

[Acornvilla]

I think Wales are an example of why our squad isn't in near as bad a shape player wise as many are saying.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wale..._football_team

Looking through that squad there's Williams and Davies at the back, Johnson and Wilson up front, that are Premier League players and the rest is a mishmash from the Championship and below. There's really nothing much else there and nothing much coming through either, yet it's enough for them to be a comfortable League B team and they got close to the Euros.

I do think we have a squad that is League B standard (bear in mind staying in League B only = being one of the top 28 teams in Europe, it's not a massive bar). It's also worth looking at the Finland squad who we are about to go head to head with to stay in the division.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finl..._football_team

Again, probably only three or four that would get in our team.

So I don't see any major player overhaul here - or necessarily any need for one - for now we just need to get back to a more sensible style of football and trust that the results will start to come as things gel. For me the first half on Tuesday remains the template, hopefully more time in camp through the autumn, more time of positioning and set pieces will help as well.

Those teams finished ahead of a combined Armenia, Latvia, Kazhakstan, Northern Ireland and San Marino in their most recent Euro's qualifications, and behind Croatia, Turkey, Slovenia and Denmark. I'm pretty sure the exact same thing would happen to us. I'm not sure that makes any of us good teams.

I'm pretty sure for instance that Greek team we finished behind would wipe the floor with all of Armenia, Latvia, Kazakhstan, Northern Ireland and San Marino over the course of a qualification, as well as obviously being better than us and Finland, I'm not sure Wales would fare much better.

I think the welsh deserve great credit for their decent results, and they've started well under a new coach, although I reckon their B league might be a bit handier than ours and Finland's. I'd take Iceland and Montenegro and Turkey over Greece, England and Finland anyway! They've been on a slide from their incredible generation and will struggle to maintain where they are going forward would be my vague assumptions without knowing their squad in great depth.