Olympics 2024

[NeverFeltBetter]

RTE has a good summation of the whole thing: https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/20...lympic-boxing/

All very strange. Two boxers concerned deny claims but didn't appeal the initial IBA ruling, the IBA no comments when asked to provide additional details of the ruling everyone is basing it all off of. IOC is insisting, over-and-over again today after unpleasant scenes involving one of the two and what seems like an opponent walkout that there is no "transgender issue" involved.

[SkStu]

What i find quite interesting is how quickly people pile on dopers (usually correctly) when they achieve something that looks suspicious. Usually people use the reactions of the accuseds fellow athletes in those moments to confirm their assumption of guilt. On the other hand, a lot of those same people will not acknowledge the reactions of these boxers' fellow competitors in those moments - quitting the bout, crying, making statements - to question how fair the situation really is. These particular women have trained their whole lives for these moments to shine at that level and it is not right that individuals with XY are allowed to ruin it for them. Instead "transphobia" and other stuff is thrown about all too quickly. That is a double standard. I see it in the usual quarters.

[seanfhear]

What i find quite interesting is how quickly people pile on dopers (usually correctly) when they achieve something that looks suspicious. Usually people use the reactions of the accuseds fellow athletes in those moments to confirm their assumption of guilt. On the other hand, a lot of those same people will not acknowledge the reactions of these boxers' fellow competitors in those moments - quitting the bout, crying, making statements - to question how fair the situation really is. These particular women have trained their whole lives for these moments to shine at that level and it is not right that individuals with XY are allowed to ruin it for them. Instead "transphobia" and other stuff is thrown about all too quickly. That is a double standard. I see it in the usual quarters.

Men-Doping in Women's sports has to stop.

[samhaydenjr]

What i find quite interesting is how quickly people pile on dopers (usually correctly) when they achieve something that looks suspicious. Usually people use the reactions of the accuseds fellow athletes in those moments to confirm their assumption of guilt. On the other hand, a lot of those same people will not acknowledge the reactions of these boxers' fellow competitors in those moments - quitting the bout, crying, making statements - to question how fair the situation really is. These particular women have trained their whole lives for these moments to shine at that level and it is not right that individuals with XY are allowed to ruin it for them. Instead "transphobia" and other stuff is thrown about all too quickly. That is a double standard. I see it in the usual quarters.

It's not a double standard - dopers are cheats who use underhand and surreptitious methods to get an artificial advantage they would not have naturally. These two competitors presented themselves as biological women to a sport which does have eligibility criteria surrounding gender and were accepted as female competitors for years until a Putin crony at a historically corrupt governing body decided otherwise - and while proof of doping is always presented, the IBA did not provide proof of its "findings". So unless some proper evidence is presented that the two women deceived the governing bodies about their biological sex, then to compare them to dope cheats is actually highly unfair (BTW this discussion started with Seanfhear saying that Kellie Harrington had stated she would refuse to box against a biological male - well it appears that she considers Imane Khelif a biological female, as she boxed against her at the last Olympics... and beat her comfortably)

[SkStu]

It is a double standard. Both are unfair advantages. One is unacceptable, the other seems to be acceptable. Double standard.

[culloty82]

It's not a double standard - dopers are cheats who use underhand and surreptitious methods to get an artificial advantage they would not have naturally. These two competitors presented themselves as biological women to a sport which does have eligibility criteria surrounding gender and were accepted as female competitors for years until a Putin crony at a historically corrupt governing body decided otherwise - and while proof of doping is always presented, the IBA did not provide proof of its "findings". So unless some proper evidence is presented that the two women deceived the governing bodies about their biological sex, then to compare them to dope cheats is actually highly unfair (BTW this discussion started with Seanfhear saying that Kellie Harrington had stated she would refuse to box against a biological male - well it appears that she considers Imane Khelif a biological female, as she boxed against her at the last Olympics... and beat her comfortably)

As did Amy Broadhurst, so for all the controversy whipped up so far, the boxers in question haven't won any major titles in their international careers to date.

[pineapple stu]

How many titles boxers win is pretty irrelevant when it comes to biological males going up against biological females. I don't know why people think this sort of stuff is ok so long as the males don't win anything.

Sharron Davies (who has been doing sterling work highlighting the idiocy of the groupthink trans ideology in sport) has been discussing this on Twitter, and says the two were previously banned by the IBA because they had XY chromosomes - that is, they were male.

I think general corruption in Olympic boxing (such as the vote in the Daina Moorhouse fight yesterday) has seen the IOC take over the running of boxing in the Olympics, and they copied the rules across but seem to have missed an update on gender ID, which is how these fighters have gotten let back in again. (Open to correction on all that)

BTW - the comments attributed to Harrington here appear not to have been made?

[samhaydenjr]

How many titles boxers win is pretty irrelevant when it comes to biological males going up against biological females. I don't know why people think this sort of stuff is ok so long as the males don't win anything.

Sharron Davies (who has been doing sterling work highlighting the idiocy of the groupthink trans ideology in sport) has been discussing this on Twitter, and says the two were previously banned by the IBA because they had XY chromosomes - that is, they were male.

I think general corruption in Olympic boxing (such as the vote in the Daina Moorhouse fight yesterday) has seen the IOC take over the running of boxing in the Olympics, and they copied the rules across but seem to have missed an update on gender ID, which is how these fighters have gotten let back in again. (Open to correction on all that)

BTW - the comments attributed to Harrington here appear not to have been made?

Then I withdraw my earlier expression of disappointment and wonder why Seanfhear falsely attributed this comment to her and, out of the blue, used it as a starting point to kick off this debate and insult a young woman who, so far as we actually know, has done nothing wrong.

[pineapple stu]

It may be the case the IOC have done wrong rather than the athletes themselves. Reading between the lines here - in particular, the IOC's insistence that this isn't a transgender issue - it seems the case may be closer to that of Caster Semenya, who was banned from women's athletics after being shown to be a biological male (ie having XY chromosomes, and as a result having gone through male puberty, which confers huge advantages). That was really unfortunate for Semenya, but ultimately it was the right decision.

The IOC (in the RTÉ article NeverFeltBetter linked) are quoted as saying "Everyone competing in the women's category is complying with the competition eligibility rules. They are women in their passports and it is stated that is the case" - that's clearly a nonsense eligibility criterion. The rules have changed since 2016 ("They are eligible by the rules of the federation, which was set in 2016" - same article) to account for transgender people getting their passports changed and competing in female events - and rightly so. That's clearly idiotic. And indeed, I think they also took cases like Semenya was banned in 2018. But the IOC, in taking over from the IBA, have gone back to those rules, which is why these two boxers are now eligible again, despite their ban last year.

It's a tricky one to comment on as there's a lot of disinformation and part information. Harrington's quote for example seems made up. I see it's been said there's no indication these two have XY chromosomes, but that's not the same as saying they don't have XY chromosomes (and therefore are male). Sharron Davies on Twitter (who, along with JK Rowling, has done superb work in exposing the trans ideology for the dangerous nonsense it is) seems adamant these guys have twice been tested and shown to be XY; I think one was the 2023 test, but the detailed results were never published; just the outcome. I've heard it said both athletes were really banned for beating Russian boxers in the World Boxing Championships (run by the IBA, which was really run by Russia), but that's not true. Khelif did beat a Russian, but Lin didn't.

And then there's an article in the Telegraph which makes the argument "Someone with a DSD [ie similar to the Semenya case] cannot help the way they were born but they can choose not to cheat; they can choose not to take medals from women; they can choose not to cause injury" - if these two boxers know they are XY, then arguably they have done wrong by continuing to enter women's competitions knowing they're not women.

[EalingGreen]

Whatever else, this is NOT a Trans issue, so people like JK Rowling, with neither sporting nor scientific expertise, should butt out of the debate and leave it to those who do.

Beyond that, I can sympathise both with the boxers who have to face this pair; but also for the pair themselves, who were registered as female when born, brought up as such and were considered female when they took up the sport.

As for saying that they are "male", that is as misleading as saying they are "female", arguably more so, since they were at least born with external female sex organs. (It is possible to be so and also have internal male organs.)

Which is not to say that these boxers should be entitled to compete: on balance I would say probably not, due to the physical danger from a contact sport. But either way, none of us is qualified to be so dogmatic, at least until more information is known, and certainly not if/when imposing pre-existing prejudices to this incredibly complex and difficult situation.