Question re Norn Iron

[liam88]

I I think it would be a fantastic move if the FAIlure could get rid of all the Celtic jerseys out of lansdowne road. maybe a campagin could be started ?

Yeah and increase biterness in and arguments in our own support
Ya gonna get the Germany away kit out while ya at it.....i mean that's antoher nation! How about we just make everyone where and Ireland jersey......or an EL jersey! No people wearing t-shirts or tracksuits allowed!
Surley having someone in a plain shirt is not better than a Celtic jersey....who's colorus are green and white-same as Ireland.....the new Celtic away strip is practically the same as the Ireland jersey!
Short of shirts with racist/secaterian/abusive slogans on them let people wear what they like.

[dcfcsteve]

Steve,

As someone from the same background of yourself I can probably tackle a few of your queries.

In recent years there is a much lower proportion of Rangers/Hearts etc shirts at Northern Ireland games than you would see Celtic shirts at Rep of Ireland game. Like Gary Spain in recent games I have looked out specifically for them and while there is a token few sprinkled round the ground, there are certainly far fewer than you would Celtic tops round Lansdowne on a match.

I agree with you on the anthem, but ask yourself how many fans from our side of the fence would go if they changed the anthem and the flag. Most opened minded fans of a Nationalist personality have already ventured to a game or two and the rest would merely seek another excuse if these perceived "barriers" were removed. In the same way as Willy Anderson made the effort to learn Amhran na bhFiann when he played rugby for Ireland, the anthem is an issue if you make it one. To be fair to the support there are regular threads on OWC about an alternative anthem and at least the fanbase are willing to debate the issue.

As you mention, the flag is a huge issue political. Witness clowns like Nelson McCausland and his attempts to get "The British and Irish Lions" changed to "The British Lions". The political landscape as it is, with the extremists in the ascendancy I can't see any change in that issue in the middle to the long term.

As regards the support I reckon it is a case of pot kettle back. Of course there are a proportion of the Northern Ireland support who are no credit to their nation. The same could be said of a proportion of the ROI support. Witness the modifications to the Fields of Athenry to include references to the RA, Sinn Fein and the like. At recent games I have asked people just to sing te original version and have been met with a shower of expletives. The irony of the fact that this was delivered from Celtic shirt wearing(no having a go, just stating fact) was not lost of me. Of course the scene your friend encountered in Malta was repellent but as Gary mentioned there is a trend for political incorrect tunes on ROi away trips at times. The bar all the Derry support frequented in Cyprus blasted out the rebel tunes, does that make our support sectarian?

The atmosphere inside Windsor these days is a cracking day out. We were at the Serbia game last year and some of our lads had Derry City gear on, surely a recipe for disaster. However we had nothing but banter from the rest of the crowd before and after the game with many people asking us when we were coming back into the Irish League. I don't expect that this would be the 100% reaction but given you can get abused in Lansdowne for wearing an eL jersey we are in no position to give out about others

Some fair points Kev.

The fans are the bit that Football Associations can do least about. There are plenty of Celtic-loving armchair Republicans amongst the Republic Of Ireland's supprt (I came very close to getting in a fight in Paris for telling a load of Cork lads to feck-up from singing 'Ra songs). But the bottom line is that I feel safer in those circles than I would amongst a similar loyalist group. I wish both lots would disappear, but it's understandably 'better the devil you know' when it comers to mouthy football supporters.

Regardless - my main bug-bear is the anthem and flag. The flag bit I can't really see any alternative for, which solves that one, but the anthem is an easy fix, and it disturbs me that the thought doesn't even appear to have crossed the IFA's mind. The fact that some of those who complain about the anthem are just using it as an excuses is irrelevant. If the IFA is serious about having a team that represents ALL of Northern Ireland - and not just a small majority of the 'nation' - then it should be looking to address these things. They should be done because they're right, and in-keeping with the apparent new identity of Northern Irish football - not just to get a few more nationalist bums on seats. If the IFA don't really care about the inclusiveness or other of the team, then fine - but just be honest about that. But you can't have words that say one thing and symbolism that says something completely different - it just doesn't wash.

And I would disagree that most open-minded nationalists have already been to Windsor. I'd say a few more would be interested now after the hype from last Weds - but bar youself and another lad I was at the College with, I don't know anyone who's been to Windsor park since the 1980's. I know a decent number of open-minded lads who love their football and have lived outside of the north for years. Now they're back in Belfast, none of them ghas been up to Windsor. I'd happily go to a Norn Iron game - just as I try to catch any football games wherever I go. But I just don't feel 'connected' to what is my home nation because it dresses itself up in an identity that I don't share, and that is considered antagonistic towards my identity.

[-lamb-]

some good points here.
a few points from me.
i mentioned this before and someone argued with me about it, but before the troubles there WAS a fairly decent support for the NI team amongst catholics, not all, but still a reasonable representation.
considering i am from a mostly protestant town, i know at least 5 or 6 catholics who go to the NI matches out of the 30 odd that i know personally who go.
all i can say is that if you are from northern ireland get yourself down to a NI match.
surely a few "no surrenders" during an anthem that lasts all of about 2 mins isn't enough of an excuse not to go?
i'd like to see our team for all our people, and that includes you steve. if its good enough for martin oneill and pat jennings to play for (with pride - one an ex-gaa player and one a celtic fan/now manager) then its good enough for you to support. isn't gerry armstrong from somewhere up the falls? all led by jim boyce the c'ville chairman.
i'll agree there were years, mostly late 80s to mid 90s, when it went a bit downhill, but the lennon incident, imo, was a catalyst for us to take a look at ourselves and stop the rot.
there's very little to be offended by now and if you still are offended then you'll never be able to support your locality's team. there's not much more that can be done.
if (mostly younger) catholics still prefer to support the ROI then the mud can't be slung at us for it. i can't help feeling peer pressure in nationalist areas is also a factor here to some degree.
as someone said, elements of the ROI support are arguably more offensive to protestants than NI fans are to you.

all i can say to northern catholics is - give it a go. support your local lads, and lets face it- thats the reason for football teams in general. the team always had representatives from both sides and it needs representatives from both communities as fans. if you go to be offended i'm sure you will. if you go to enjoy yourself i'm also sure you will.
basically - will you partake in the community or will you deliberately ostracise(sp?)yourself and keep things segragated by not participating?
ps. re: anthems....i'd be for one of our own but the problem is what song? danny boy isn't exactly any livelier than gstq! there's not a lot of decent choices out there tbh

[thejollyrodger]

I dont agree with celtic jerseys (no matter how similar to the ireland jersey) being worn in lansdowne. The whole Rangers Celtic thing has little to do with football.

[soccerc]

As for sectarianism - can you provide some examples?
Have you been to any game srecently?

Gary, as you know I was and I believe you too heard a muted but clearly audible "No Surrender" chant in Lurgan when some of the crowd sang GSTQ.

It seemed to embarrass those around us but certainly not everyone as they were applauded when they finished. I understand that those involved just happened to be associated with the QUBNISC

[MariborKev]

Lamb,

I don't think anyone other than fellow Nationalists can understand the alienation that those like myself, dcfcsteve and kerr's tribe feel at the playing of GSTQ in Windsor Park.

I really don't want this very informative thread to descend into petty politics but the issue has to be mentioned.

Me da was a regular at Windsor in the 60s,70s but stopped going in the 80s. He said that he wouldn't take us to somewhere we wouldn't be welcomed.

My father, brother and I went along to Windsor when we were kids in the early 90s. The atmosphere in those days was still very tense and after one "close shave" we had to say that we were from Limavady and not from Derry. This was in the South Stand as well........

Me da refused to let us go to any of the games between the North and the Republic and he stopped going after the infamous "Night in November". He has been back sporadically in the last few years and wishes them well but he has the same interest in the Republic now as he did in NI when he was much younger.

As for the anthem-without going into the politics, the anthem doesn't represent a large number of the population. As a constitutional nationalist who would be as happy with an independent, self governed NI as I would be with a united Ireland, GSTQ will never be an anthem for me. I would count myself as a free thinking open minded Nationalist and if I can't accept GSTQ you can only imagine the reaction of more blinkered members of my "side" to that anthem.

There are numerous examples of nations "changing" anthems in recent years and therefore there is no reason why the same could not happen for NI.

[TheOwl]

As I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to most "Norn Iron" issues, I decided to look up the lyrics of "the Sash".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sash (wikipedia coming in handy today eh?)

I was surprised it mentioned "Derry" and not "Londonderry" in the lyrics, any reason for this?

Also how cool is that bit about Gerry Adams

"There exists a translation into Irish, which Gerry Adams used to sing to his mainly Protestant customers when he worked as a barman, before he became a prominent Republican activist."

Please tell me that is true!

Basically, near enough all the Protestants I have met from Northern Ireland have been sound chaps so I hate anything that seems to polarise the two communities (i.e. Sectarian songs, and Celtic and Rangers)

[Éanna]

seriosuly mate do a bit of research on the orange order......or just watch the news tonight. It's nto about being proud to be British-i'm sure the soldiers whot he orange order attack with iron bars and petrol bombs are proud to be British.....and they wouldn't sing the sash.
The orange order is an anti-Catholic association. That is indisputible. Last night showed undoubtbly that they are still thugs. Thugs that most British are digusted by.

Its as sectarian as the Fields of Athenry- i.e. its not. Neither of them are. Just because certain people sing those songs, does not make them sectarian.

[Éanna]

Yeah and increase biterness in and arguments in our own support
Ya gonna get the Germany away kit out while ya at it.....i mean that's antoher nation! How about we just make everyone where and Ireland jersey......or an EL jersey! No people wearing t-shirts or tracksuits allowed!
Surley having someone in a plain shirt is not better than a Celtic jersey....who's colorus are green and white-same as Ireland.....the new Celtic away strip is practically the same as the Ireland jersey!
Short of shirts with racist/secaterian/abusive slogans on them let people wear what they like.

What have Celtic jersies got to do with Ireland games? Thats the bottom line- nothing. They have absolutely **** all to do with the Irish teams, and the very fact that they are an issue that has been mentioned repeatedly on here and elsewhere is a good enough reason for a ban IMO.

[Éanna]

Well for the same opposite reasons (as a southern Irish protestant)overtime I have withdrawn from identifying with the R.of Ireland team.

Speaking as a southern Irish nationalist who went to a protestant school, but is a fervent atheist, I'm intrigued to read what you have to say! (EDIT: and is distantly related to that most noble of Irish freedom fighters, Wolfe Tone, a protestant.)

Firstly the "national anthem" with the words "Saxon foe".Well,It's easy to know who it's aimed at.

I honestly think that this is aimed solely at the political/military occupation of Ireland by Britain. I have many protestant friends who have no problem with the irish anthem. IMO, its commemorating our country's (partial) liberation from colonialism, as is the case with the anthem of many, if not most, ex-colonies.

"The tricolour flag"(even though it's original origins were noble) it has been hijacked and sullied by the sight of it on coffins at IRA funerals being carried by Mr Adams and Mr.McGuinness.

I'd agree to some extent there, but the point has been made- there's very little can be done about certain people hijacking a flag, and I for one don't think the tricolour should be an issue, as its original intentions were right, and people should rise above being offended by the actions of certain groups.

"The sectarian element"In Landsowne Road overtime,I've heard all the 'Ra chants,seen the union flag burned,booing Rangers players etc., the Fields of Athenry being sung by
Celtic jersey brigade etc.

Ra chants, burning flags, booing Rangers players- all totally wrong and indefensible, especially in a football ground. nothing wrong with the Fields of Athenry per se, but it has been hijacked by neanderthals

the pubs if there's a sing song usually there's a few 'Ra songs thrown in.

Depends on what kind of ra sing along it is. I have no problem with old songs such as "Boys of the Old Brigade" etc, which, like Amhrán na bFhiann celebrate the past of this country. The RA songs I would have a problem with are ones which glorify the murder and atrocities committed by terrorists. There is also a time and a place for these songs, and even those which I don't find offensive (And quite enjoy) don't, IMO, have a place at a football ground.

Then you get a funny look if you know nothing about the G.A.A. It all leads to a mono-cultural identity.

Tell me about it Try being in Cork over the last 48 hours and not giving a toss about the hurling

Therefore without compromising my heritage and culture I too also feel alienated from supporting the national team of the country I was born in.

As do I, but not for most of the reasons you obviously do. Its something the FAI need to sort out- the half-hearted attempts to deal with the pig-ignorant Celtic "fans" who boo Rangers players just aren't good enough.

[gspain]

Gary, as you know I was and I believe you too heard a muted but clearly audible "No Surrender" chant in Lurgan when some of the crowd sang GSTQ.

It seemed to embarrass those around us but certainly not everyone as they were applauded when they finished. I understand that those involved just happened to be associated with the QUBNISC

As you said muted but clearly audible. I agree it was inappropriate but from a small minority of the crowd. The same fans who were later singing "Pat McCourt is the new Pele". The singing in Lurgan was fine and you may recall you wore your Irish shirt and we cheered openly for our goals and somebody even cheered evin Doyle's onside goal when he missed the linesman's flag.

[gspain]

A few brief points for motorcycleman

1) You did well to find a pub full of GAA fans on an away trip. Many football fans have no time for that organisation for many reasons mentioned in other threads. It's not just protestants btw that have been victims of GAA bigotry.

2) The Celtic thing is a recent fad. 10 years ago outside of Donegal you would rarely see Celtic shirts

3) The booing and sectarian abus eof curremt/former Rangers players began in 2000. It is totally wrong but by a vocal minority.

4) Thankfully we haven't had any sectarian singing at Lansdowne but I am concerned too at the rise of it in pubs at away games. In the past any one who tried that sort of thing was promptly shut up.

5) Northern Ireland fans openly displayed both Ulster and UJ flags at the 89 & 93 games in Lansdowne among the home fans (no away end that I can recall). I know of quite a few who came down in 89 with no problems whatsoever. My recollection is that there was an away end on the north terrace in 78 but I was just a kid then.

[soccerc]

I know of quite a few who came down in 89 with no problems whatsoever. My recollection is that there was an away end on the north terrace in 78 but I was just a kid then.

The North Terrace was the away end in 1978 and it was a full of naked sectarianism along the constant burning of tricolours.

Before, during and after the game there were incidents generally started by our Northern Friends. I recall at the final whistle a mini riot as they left the North Terrace and came around the back of the East Stand. I can still see the fear on the face of ITN's Trevor McDonald as he filmed his report of the events along Lansdowne Road that afternoon.

[Pat O' Banton]

2) The Celtic thing is a recent fad. 10 years ago outside of Donegal you would rarely see Celtic shirts

I point my honourable freind to the video of the Italia 90 Qualifying campaign which shows loads going bonkers on the north terrace in the tops of non eL clubs - and we ain't talking Boca Juniors or Grampus 8 here. (Also weren't there a few spotted wandering around the Strets of Germany in '88?)

[gspain]

I point my honourable freind to the video of the Italia 90 Qualifying campaign which shows loads going bonkers on the north terrace in the tops of non eL clubs - and we ain't talking Boca Juniors or Grampus 8 here. (Also weren't there a few spotted wandering around the Strets of Germany in '88?)

Too many Harps fans got tickets in those days.

We had little tv coverage of Scottish football in those days and celtic are far far bigger now in the Republic then they were then imo. Tough thing to measure so we'll have to agree to differ.

[SaucyJack]

some good points here.
a few points from me.
i mentioned this before and someone argued with me about it, but before the troubles there WAS a fairly decent support for the NI team amongst catholics, not all, but still a reasonable representation.
considering i am from a mostly protestant town, i know at least 5 or 6 catholics who go to the NI matches out of the 30 odd that i know personally who go.
all i can say is that if you are from northern ireland get yourself down to a NI match.
surely a few "no surrenders" during an anthem that lasts all of about 2 mins isn't enough of an excuse not to go?
i'd like to see our team for all our people, and that includes you steve. if its good enough for martin oneill and pat jennings to play for (with pride - one an ex-gaa player and one a celtic fan/now manager) then its good enough for you to support. isn't gerry armstrong from somewhere up the falls? all led by jim boyce the c'ville chairman.
i'll agree there were years, mostly late 80s to mid 90s, when it went a bit downhill, but the lennon incident, imo, was a catalyst for us to take a look at ourselves and stop the rot.
there's very little to be offended by now and if you still are offended then you'll never be able to support your locality's team. there's not much more that can be done.
if (mostly younger) catholics still prefer to support the ROI then the mud can't be slung at us for it. i can't help feeling peer pressure in nationalist areas is also a factor here to some degree.
as someone said, elements of the ROI support are arguably more offensive to protestants than NI fans are to you.

all i can say to northern catholics is - give it a go. support your local lads, and lets face it- thats the reason for football teams in general. the team always had representatives from both sides and it needs representatives from both communities as fans. if you go to be offended i'm sure you will. if you go to enjoy yourself i'm also sure you will.
basically - will you partake in the community or will you deliberately ostracise(sp?)yourself and keep things segragated by not participating?
ps. re: anthems....i'd be for one of our own but the problem is what song? danny boy isn't exactly any livelier than gstq! there's not a lot of decent choices out there tbh

to some people on a small island, "local" is a relative term, someone from Donegal or Cavan might be "local" to someone from Derry or Fermanagh.

[gspain]

Before the troubles there was a fairly decent support for NI from the Republic.

4 guys from Limerick went up to Belfast in 1946 for the NI v England game on the saturday and then on to Dublin on the Monday for the RoI v Eng game.

There were special trains from Dublin in 1966 for the NI v England game.

There was certainly cross community support during the world cups in 1982 & 1986. I imagine there was also in 1958.

[Partizan]

I recall watching a N Ireland match a few years back and recall seeing a Derry City NISC flag or it could have been a green & blue flag DCFC on it, not sure.

Whats the story with you Derry lads? Do you support NI as your first team or your allegiances now are alligned squarely with RoI ever since you left the Irish League?

tbh, as a southern Irish Republican Socialist myself, I have no problem with anyone supporting the wee 6 and I always look out for them anytime they play and would love to see them do well. I have absolutley nothing against Protestants, both North & South and even have some good mates who are from the other side. I even played football with an Irish Jew. All this talk about Celtic jerseys and the naked sectarianism and flag waving from both sides has me nearly spewing over a sink bowl.

The sooner the bigots are told to f-off, the better for everyone.

Eanna, I know how you feel about the stick fighting man. You C/\wkies won the thing so put up with the exploits of Setanta Og O hAlpin crap until the bandwagon starts up again next July. Rather you than me mate.

[Éanna]

Eanna, I know how you feel about the stick fighting man. You C/\wkies won the thing so put up with the exploits of Setanta Og O hAlpin crap until the bandwagon starts up again next July. Rather you than me mate.

shudder. the thought of it all makes me ill

[dcfcsteve]

I recall watching a N Ireland match a few years back and recall seeing a Derry City NISC flag or it could have been a green & blue flag DCFC on it, not sure.

Whats the story with you Derry lads? Do you support NI as your first team or your allegiances now are alligned squarely with RoI ever since you left the Irish League?

There is, or at least was recently, a green and blue 'Derry City Norn Iron' flag. I can't recall who owned it, but it was a Derry fan - Maribor should know. I do, however, recall a picture of it that appeared on the DCFC forum from a Northern Ireland away trip. It had about 6 Norn Iron fans standing/lying around it with their arms mimicking holding and pointing rifles at the camera, and their faces blacked out. Odd behaviour, to say the least. Some might even say disturbing....

The vast majority of Derry City fans support the Republic. Each will have their own reason/mix of reasons for doing so, generally from the the following :

- Politics.
- An inability to identify with the the Northern Ireland team.
- A dislike of Northern Ireland fans.
- A dislike of the official and unoffiail Unionist symbolism at NI games
- A dislike of the IFA for their treatment of DCFC from 1972-1985.
- A greater affinity with southern fans since we joined the EL.
- The fact the Republic are a much better and more succesful side now.

I only know of one DCFC fan who supports the north over the south. Any others I know who support the north (e.g. Maribor) also go to see the south, and I am guessing they would support the Republic primarily (but that's for them to confirm).