Question re Norn Iron

[Dodge]

We had little tv coverage of Scottish football in those days and celtic are far far bigger now in the Republic then they were then imo. Tough thing to measure so we'll have to agree to differ.

I don't think that can be disputed but its not restricted to Celtic either. Loads of blokes I went to school with who ahd no interest in football are now life long Man U/Liverpool devotees.

A lot of them would have Celtic as their second side. None of them would choose Celtic for footballing reasons

[Macy]

tbh I think the support is largely as "bad" as each other when it comes to sectarianism. There does seem to be an element that can't see that doesn't see that their songs are offensive to the other side. I mean on this thread we've got people saying about Rangers shirts at games of the North and then others defending Celtic shirts at Lansdowne, saying The Sash is offensive but the Fields of Athenry definitely isn't, Billy Boy's is, RA songs aren't.....

I actually think that the Republic is also a pretty sectarian state itself tbh. Hopefully that'll change with the increased cultural mix, but being brought up where you had mates of practically every religion you can think of, I certainly notice it being commented on. I also know several Protestants who feel the need to hide their religion in their workplace even in this day and age.

[lopez]

I was at the NI v Spain game two years ago in Belfast and I agree with you Steve, the fans, in terms of supporting their side, were some of the best I've seen. I thought then that while NI would find it hard against the cr*p teams that they could pull off victory against a top side. They could have beaten Spain that day, and they did the impossible last Wednesday. As for sectarianism, the odd King Billy scarfe - if I'm going to call 'Gers shirts 'sectarian' then I'll have to concede Celtic shirts are too, which I won't - was spotted but the anthem - complete with 'No surrender' - was sung by what I thought were few people. Everyone stood for it but it surprised me that in a place with such a reputation as a bastion of loyalism that so many chose to keep quiet.

While the 'Republic's' support has its problems I disagree with what 'motorcycleman' says about the side and protestants, unless he considers himself British or is of immediate British descent. The culture of republicanism is not anti-protestant but anti-colonial and imperial, of which Britain has been the sole culprit in Ireland for 800 years. Protestants are everywhere within Irish nationalist history. Two protestants have been heads of states in Ireland. RCs can't even marry the head of state of Britain but - believe me - there is no shortage of patriotism (and fawning of the Windsors) amongst British Catholics because of it. Conversely, quite a few Irish Protestants I know support Celtic over Rangers. One I knew did the opposite but was no less Irish for it.

Finally, the rise of sectarianism as observed by Gary. My first experience of Irish fans was walking into a minutes silence for the hunger strikers in Rotterdam in 1981 which was broken up by the singing of the soldiers song and the burning of a Union Jack outside an English pub called 'The Double Diamond.' Afterwards the Dutch flag was set on fire (either because of King Bill or that the colours were the same as the Butchers' Apron). I - and my Dad who I was with - found this particularly disgusting, especially when two old pensioners - who probably hadn't seen such behaviour since the Wermacht were in town - complained about this affront. When Ireland became a successfull team - and support increased - this side of the support became heavily diluted. To me, there has been nothing since that can compare with some of the stuff that went on before Euro 88.

[dcfcsteve]

Finally, the rise of sectarianism as observed by Gary. My first experience of Irish fans was walking into a minutes silence for the hunger strikers in Rotterdam in 1981 which was broken up by the singing of the soldiers song and the burning of a Union Jack outside an English pub called 'The Double Diamond.' Afterwards the Dutch flag was set on fire (either because of King Bill or that the colours were the same as the Butchers' Apron). I - and my Dad who I was with - found this particularly disgusting, especially when two old pensioners - who probably hadn't seen such behaviour since the Wermacht were in town - complained about this affront. When Ireland became a successfull team - and support increased - this side of the support became heavily diluted. To me, there has been nothing since that can compare with some of the stuff that went on before Euro 88.

Whilst such actions were clearly reprehensible Lopez, they were sadly a sign of the times and not to be unexpected. Apart from the 1969-1972 period, the Hunger Strikes was the most divisive and heated period in the Troubles - particularly for the nationalist community. Evereyone had a view - including very respectable middle class people on both sides. It therefore doesn't surprise me to hear that things like this happened at the time.

But that was 24 years ago. Fast-forward to 2005, and Northern Ireland is thankfully a very different place. The fans of both teams on the island are also thankfully different people (or, to be more accurate, are just more broadly represented, with less reason and intent to act as they would have done in more troubled times). But the IFA has not moved with the times to reflect this, and still dresses itself exclusively in the symbolism of the Unionist community. How many people chose to sing along to GSTQ at a game is not the issue. It is simply unacceptable in modern times for the IFA to stubbornly remain a bastion of the old way of life in Northern Ireland - whilst hypocritically claiming to represent all within the province.

[gspain]

The guy beside me at the Azerbaijan game pointed out a Derry city fan called Sean inv frornt of us but I didn't meet him. He apparently brings his Derry City flag to all games home and away. I don't know his surname and even if I did it would not be approrpriate to post it on an internet messageboard.

Derry City still have quite a few protestant fans despite joining the LoI and playing on a sunday for years. However I would imagine the majority of fans in the Brandywell support the Republic.

Note NI have played a few underage Internationals at the Brandywell.

[Dodge]

Note NI have played a few underage Internationals at the Brandywell.

Which was touted by some as a move by the IFA to suss out the feelings in Derry for a return to the IL...

Not saying there's any truth in that BTW

[magic moments]

check this website out, www.ourweecontry.co.uk

Have to agree that the north's support is a lot more vocal than ours, however having attended a few northern ireland games in the mid to late 80's against( ingerland) there were at that time were def more sectarian chants than i have heard from all my time following the REPUBLIC.

[motorcycleman]

Lopez - No,I'm not of immediate British descent,nor have I any relatives who live in Britain.My ancestors arrived in Ireland even before the pilgrim fathers landed in what is now the U.S.

Macy - I couldn't agree with your' comments more especially the last sentence.Being a "P"here you are conscious of it & you don't want to attract any unwanted attention to yourself.BTW I was really impressed on what a family friendly club Longford Town are on attending both Setanta Cup games in Longford.

[Andyh]

Personally, as a Northern Protestant and unionist with a very small "u". I feel no allegiance to the Queen/Royals at all, so therefore I stand in silence in Windsor Park when it is played, as many others do it must be said. I would love a more representative anthem, that actually had something to do with the country, although it is quite a divisive issue amongst fans.

On the issue of flags again i really don't feel allegiance to any fleg it must be said, i kinda reckon most flags in NI/Ireland are somewhat tarnished by paramilitaries/sectarian violence, as someone mentioned earlier. It has to be said though the vast majority of flags at Windsor are the NI ones and not union jacks.

The best flag for NI i believe would be the IFA crest, which i've always thought was excellent, and it's good to see that so many people are starting to bring them to games rather than more political flags.

Finally, i don't know if anyone on here has seen the new NI top launched for the IFA's 125th anniversary. If not, the badge is based on the original all ireland badge from 1880, basically a cross of st patrick with a big harp in the middle. It just sums up the number of contradictions in NI society, when kids in loyalist areas run about in this top, yet its so 'Irish' looking.

I think its great by the way, i've worn it to the last two games, including the victory against engerland, so it must be a bit of a lucky charm. I'm superstitious in that way about football, so i'll be wearin' it to the next two games.

[geysir]

The crest is an excellent idea from Andy, I have only seen the old one he is talking about I was gobsmacked when I saw it, it truly is a work of art.
Anything but GSTQ, even that great song of unity from the Belfast strikes of the 1930''s "Yes we got no bananas today" would do nicely

[lopez]

Finally, i don't know if anyone on here has seen the new NI top launched for the IFA's 125th anniversary. If not, the badge is based on the original all ireland badge from 1880, basically a cross of st patrick with a big harp in the middle. It just sums up the number of contradictions in NI society, when kids in loyalist areas run about in this top, yet its so 'Irish' looking.

I think its great by the way, i've worn it to the last two games, including the victory against engerland, so it must be a bit of a lucky charm. I'm superstitious in that way about football, so i'll be wearin' it to the next two games.

Plenty of old photos with that badge and I've saw an exhibition in Belfast with original shirts, in 1994. Funny that Ireland, pre partition, used to play in Blue and that old newspapers would often describe it as 'Royal' if it was the Ulster Newsletter or 'St Patrick's' if the Irish News or Freeman's Journal. Also I've seen team pictures of the North (still called Ireland and picking players from the 32 counties) with Irish rugby jerseys at the same time the Free State were wearing exactly the same shirts. Oh for those pre registered trade mark and corporate image days!

[gspain]

Plenty of old photos with that badge and I've saw an exhibition in Belfast with original shirts, in 1994. Funny that Ireland, pre partition, used to play in Blue and that old newspapers would often describe it as 'Royal' if it was the Ulster Newsletter or 'St Patrick's' if the Irish News or Freeman's Journal. Also I've seen team pictures of the North (still called Ireland and picking players from the 32 counties) with Irish rugby jerseys at the same time the Free State were wearing exactly the same shirts. Oh for those pre registered trade mark and corporate image days!

The first F.A.I. side also worse blue. This was the Irish team that played in the 1924 Olympics in Paris which was the forerunner to the World Cup. They were also the first team to play under the tricolour.

[gspain]

I don't think that can be disputed but its not restricted to Celtic either. Loads of blokes I went to school with who ahd no interest in football are now life long Man U/Liverpool devotees.

A lot of them would have Celtic as their second side. None of them would choose Celtic for footballing reasons

A lot of people would have had celtic as their 2nd side 15 years ago or so but would have rarely seen them play. When Celtic came here in 86 and had a lucky win over Rovers almost all the crowd were supporting Rovers. Now it would be the other way around.

[Dodge]

A lot of people would have had celtic as their 2nd side 15 years ago or so but would have rarely seen them play. When Celtic came here in 86 and had a lucky win over Rovers almost all the crowd were supporting Rovers. Now it would be the other way around.

Funny you should mention that game. I was brought along by my dad and uncle. It was the first non Pats game I'd go to...

Only being a nipper I asked why were the Celtic fans burning the British flag, "are they not British dad?"

[motorcycleman]

On this topic on people feeling alienated from their respective national teams,here are some items to consider on the future of Irish football?
I know that these following items have been mentioned before.The links between the countries and people of these Islands are deeply interwoven.We have more in common than apart.

The Irish F.A. as the fourth oldest F.A. sits as an equal member with the Welsh,English & Scottish football associations and four representatives of FIFA itself on the International Football Board – the rule-making body that determines the Laws of the Game.Before 1921 a team represented the entire island. Both the I.F.A.(original) & F.A.I. (new rival association) claimed to represent all of Ireland after partition until the 1950's.The IF.A.'s help in the development of the game(penatly kicks,offside rule etc.)should be fully recognised.Therefore the (original)"Irish" F.A. name remains and playing for the (original) "Irish" Cup in a new revamped all-Ireland"Irish" League.

The "new developed" I.F.A.'s main objective is (back to it's original plan) to promote the game throughout Ireland.
Instead of the Belfast/Dublin H.Q. tug-of-war why not base it's H.Q. in say "Athlone" the center of Ireland ?
BTW I'm not from Athlone.
What issues/concerns would people have with the "new developed" Irish football association keeping it's position as a "Home nation" on the I.F.B. ?
As both associations wear green & white,would an (original) St.Patrick's blue strip be acceptable as an alternative away strip?The crest as on the 125th anniversary I.F.A. strip can be adapted to modern standards.

Now the tricky items of Flag & national anthem.(Flannel suit on)
How about a cross of St.Patrick with the crests of the four provinces in each of the four white sections ?
Perhaps "Danny Boy"could be musically adapted into an acceptable anthem.

The overwhelming majority of Irish international players of both Northern and Republic of Ireland play in the English and Scottish Leagues. The link with the proffesional footballers association should be strenghtened.The Irish part of the P.F.A. emblem I don't think can offend anyone.The P.F.A. could help as advisors here to both clubs and players as to the development of the proffesional game.

In the spirit of tolerance,acceptance,accomodation and vision what do people think/ suggest ?

[geysir]

Macy,
Interesting statement that "the 26 counties is a pretty sectarian state itself".
How broad is your definition of sectarianism, is everything to do with the national struggle interpreted as sectarian, is Tom Barry regarded as a sectarian mass murderer, are all songs emanating from that time and before, sectarian?
My definition of sectarian is, intolerance based on religious affiliation. "Because you are a protestant/catholic I am prejudiced to you as a person" That prejudice can take many forms, all of them totally ignorant, from the incident you described in the workplace to not able to find employment to getting your head blown off.
There are radically diiferent degrees on how prejudice is expressed
and based on what I witnessed here in Iceland with both traveling supporters there is a huge difference between the union jack clad mob that followed NI to the tricoloured clad supporters that followed the ROI.

What would get me back to supporting NI ?
I already recognize that there have been big changes since the Lennon booing, I am more than half interested already. Windsor pk is a lot more appealing now.
For a new song,
Danny boy, the Derry air or the Londonderry air Too slow imo, too tragic.
and the same goes for the drunk in "Carrickfergus". "I'll tell me ma" no thanks.
The rugby song "Irelands call" doesn't deserve the slating it receives.

I can accept that there are 2 soccer federations and there is no realistic chance of a 32 county team in the near future.
Cross border sporting rivalry, Setanta competition to be continued not only for the cash it generates but the boast of All Ireland champions should be priceless. Both leagues getting stronger and mutually benifiting each other through this competition. Eventually a showpiece final.
Changes in the south, once and for all an end to the mindless sectarian booing of Rangers players and ex players at Landsdowne rd. ATM I can't for the life of me see one objectionable word or line in the Fields of Athenry. And wearing green and white hooped shirts is okay as long as they behave, increase the stewarding to ensure this. Otherwise remove ticket allocation or put conditions on allocation.

[-lamb-]

The first F.A.I. side also worse blue. This was the Irish team that played in the 1924 Olympics in Paris which was the forerunner to the World Cup. They were also the first team to play under the tricolour.

as far as i know, the "official" colour for the RoI is blue. i think....

[holidaysong]

as far as i know, the "official" colour for the RoI is blue. i think....

To the best of my knowledge, the coat of arms of the state is a gold harp on a blue background. However this could be the President's seal or something.
My copy of the constitution is blue with the gold harp on it.
However the tricolour is the official flag obviously.

[Gerrit]

I have a wee question here, out of interest in the history of my current homeland, and also as an Atheist myself.

I don't get why so many people speak of Protestants vs Catholics instead of Loyalists vs Nationalists. I know the two are often combined (protestant-loyalist and catholic-nationalist) but isn't it a generalisation?

I mean, I have met a few catholics who still wanted N.Ireland to stay under British reign because of the government that seems to financially help citizens more than the ROI government. So these people were Catholic, but also Loyalist. I know it will be a very slight minority, but still...

And I know Northern Ireland also has a small Jewish and Muslim community (the Islamic Centre of Belfast is not too far from my home), they are neither Protestant nor Catholic but will probably also have a political preference for ROI or UK. And then there's atheists who believe in no god but still will have a purely political-based idea about if NI should be Irish or British.

So isn't it a bit a wrong generalisation to speak of Catholics and Protestants instead of Unionists and Nationalists? I mean, it is ignoring the minority that practices another or no religion, and ignoring the protestant nationalists and catholic loyalists...

Not trying to be ignorant or stubborn here, I'm trying to get some more insight in the country where I live now.



And as for the football-related stuff: the question we should ask: if NI changes flag and anthem, would it change much in terms of support? Would the ones that support ROI now suddenly change and start supporting North over South? I think we must see as well if th Nationalist community that would is big enough. If the support would still be 80% Loyalist, then I guess it makes sense the IFA tries to sell its product (the national team) to the people that are interested in buying it (= going to the games). If those happen to be 80% Loyalist it is not unlogical that they will still use the current flag and use the term Ulster. I mean, football these days is economy and everyone aims for its target audience and tries to make its product attractive to that audience...
I'm not mentionning GSTQ because it is clear that many NI fans want something else as well. Londonderry Air or Danny Boy would be good choices IMO because they are at least typical Northern Ireland.




and off-topic: Belgium has its part of sectarianism as well, as Flanders (Dutch speaking part) has a strong movement wanting to split off from the French speaking part. At sports manifestation lot of people will wave the Flemish flag and the separatist party won the last regional elections. Their main issues are the fact that more money goes from Flanders to Wallony than otherwise, the former French dominance of society, and the fact that Brussels is mainly a french-speaking city.

I am, to adopt a term from this island, a Unionist and refuse to label myself as Flemish. I just don't see the point in further divide in Belgium and would rather see less rights to local governments and more to national government. Then also I am a wee bit Republican because I am not pro-monarchy. But it doesn't bother me that much because it is also a bit of a symbol for the united Belgium I wish to see maintained.

[geysir]

Not trying to be ignorant or stubborn here, I'm trying to get some more insight in the country where I live now.
.

Gerrit, I think if you want more insight with those things then go to the library and start reading. Take your time to pick out what appeals to you.