With FAI or LoI to go it alone again?

[sbgawa]

If i had to guess what all these clubs none of whom are within an Asses roar of participation in Europe had in common it would be owners or CEO's with Lambo being a great example who have an exagerated sense of their own importance.

[2 Year Contract]

Wasn’t sure which thread to put it in but seen as this one relates to league structure I thought I’d post it here.

There’s a new proposal to make it a requirement that Premier division clubs have at least 14 full time professionals in their squads next season, with the ultimate goal of that incrementally increasing to 20 players in the coming years. It should be doable for the current premier division clubs plus cork (as it’s already the case at all of them bar Drogs) but I can’t see this being popular with the first division clubs and it could potentially stop them getting promoted unless they take financial risks. Overall though it will undoubtedly improve the standard of the premier division over time, rather than having a whipping boy like a Longford 2021 or UCD 2023. Whether or not that’s fair on smaller FD clubs that don’t generate enough income via supporters or investors is another debate

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soc...paign=sharebar

[pineapple stu]

PFA want more money for its members shocker!

I think it's an inherently stupid suggestion. If clubs can afford 14 full-time pros - great. It should be encouraged as a target.

But enforcing it leaves little room for manoeuvre if financial problems strike (in the LoI? Never!) and I think we've also seen that sometimes going full-time is to the detriment of a team. What we call full-time can be so marginal that you can weaken your squad by ditching part-time guys who don't want to take the risk/can't afford going full-time.)

Natural selection is the best way for this to happen I think. The full-time teams should in theory do better than the part-time teams and if the league profile keeps improving (by no means guaranteed - there's already suggestions in the attendances thread the post-covid boom may have peaked) then you'll get there naturally. But forcing it is silly.

[Acornvilla]

In the event of Cork up/Drogheda down, the season after that I'm not sure anyone but Drogheda could get promoted again, maybe Finn Harps at a push get the crowds? I understand the proposal in theory but I'm not sure we're there yet if we want a functional pyramid.

[2 Year Contract]

To add context, it would work out at around 6k a week for clubs, for arguement sake say around 6.5k when allowing for a few more part time players in the squad. I’m not saying that that would be affordable for a lot of the current FD clubs, but out of interest does anyone know roughly what those sort of clubs are spending per week on squad wages now? No doubt the increased attendances of being in the premier division would help with funds, but probably not enough to bridge the gap without outside funding into said club

[Nesta99]

PFA want more money for its members shocker!

I think it's an inherently stupid suggestion. If clubs can afford 14 full-time pros - great. It should be encouraged as a target.

But enforcing it leaves little room for manoeuvre if financial problems strike (in the LoI? Never!) and I think we've also seen that sometimes going full-time is to the detriment of a team. What we call full-time can be so marginal that you can weaken your squad by ditching part-time guys who don't want to take the risk/can't afford going full-time.)

Natural selection is the best way for this to happen I think. The full-time teams should in theory do better than the part-time teams and if the league profile keeps improving (by no means guaranteed - there's already suggestions in the attendances thread the post-covid boom may have peaked) then you'll get there naturally. But forcing it is silly.

Id love to be at a Licencing committee meeting where they reject a club budget that makes them fail to get a licence for not being allowed to pay for 14 ft players - damned if you do, damned if you do!

[Longfordian]

We've never had any actual full time players as far as I'm aware albeit we had a few over the years who were earning enough that they didn't feel the need to do anything else. I can't see a situation where we could fund 14 of them any time soon if ever. I do wonder how much longer we can keep funding a LOI team to be honest. A few generous individuals have kept us afloat over the years, in particular Jim Hanley our chairman, but that can't go on forever.

[nigel-harps1954]

To add context, it would work out at around 6k a week for clubs, for arguement sake say around 6.5k when allowing for a few more part time players in the squad. I’m not saying that that would be affordable for a lot of the current FD clubs, but out of interest does anyone know roughly what those sort of clubs are spending per week on squad wages now? No doubt the increased attendances of being in the premier division would help with funds, but probably not enough to bridge the gap without outside funding into said club

While 14 players would cost a minimum of €6k a week, you'd need at least another 6 or 8 players part-time, possibly earning about 250 a week. Plus all your staff costs and backroom team, some of which would obviously have to be full time too, and whatever few quid you'd have to pay youth players to be part of an extended squad. You wouldn't possibly be able to manage a full time squad for less than between €8-10k a week bare minimum.

There's loopholes in minimum wage though, if you're spending on accommodation or travel expenses, which can come out of the wage cost too.

I don't see it being feasible for more than one or two current First Division clubs. And all of this is before you go into the quality of player and the wages they'd demand, as not everyone will go full time in football for €430 a week.

[Martinho II]

Tbh with these proposals I can see the situation that the PT clubs like my club will be further cut adrift from the FT side. With the vastly reduced support base I can see us getting out of the loi and back to LSL as theres no future in it.

[EalingGreen]

Tbh with these proposals I can see the situation that the PT clubs like my club will be further cut adrift from the FT side. With the vastly reduced support base I can see us getting out of the loi and back to LSL as theres no future in it.

This is interesting when read in conjunction with some recent comments in the Attendances thread, where posters discussed which of 10 or 12 teams was optimal for the Premier Division.

Clearly the professionalism we've seen emerge at a dozen(?) LOI clubs has brought a lot of benefits. But I wonder whether this has drawbacks, too in that even without compulsory f-t status as proposed by the PFAI (above), there is a danger that the chosen dozen become completely cut off from the rest of the LOI, who themselves may be cut-off from everyone else, in a process aided by the absence of a pyramid.

For a country with a wealthy population of 5m and a long footballing tradition should surely be able to support rather more than 17* Senior clubs, with half a dozen of those part-time? As the governing body, shouldn't the FAI/LOI be doing much more to spread the Senior game beyond the traditional centres and throughout the whole country?


* - Excludes UCD (outlier), DCFC (NI) and Kerry (not yet Established, even if early signs seem promising)

[Nesta99]

This is interesting when read in conjunction with some recent comments in the Attendances thread, where posters discussed which of 10 or 12 teams was optimal for the Premier Division.

Clearly the professionalism we've seen emerge at a dozen(?) LOI clubs has brought a lot of benefits. But I wonder whether this has drawbacks, too in that even without compulsory f-t status as proposed by the PFAI (above), there is a danger that the chosen dozen become completely cut off from the rest of the LOI, who themselves may be cut-off from everyone else, in a process aided by the absence of a pyramid.

For a country with a wealthy population of 5m and a long footballing tradition should surely be able to support rather more than 17* Senior clubs, with half a dozen of those part-time? As the governing body, shouldn't the FAI/LOI be doing much more to spread the Senior game beyond the traditional centres and throughout the whole country?


* - Excludes UCD (outlier), DCFC (NI) and Kerry (not yet Established, even if early signs seem promising)

It certainly is when its too much too soon. There are a very small number of clubs that have absolute financial security, wealthy owners basically (and UCD). All the rest, including Shamrock Rovers tbh still have question marks over profitability or accumulated debt. Not that I think Rovers would be at terminal risk, but could you be as confident about Dundalk, Sligo Rovers, Waterford, never mind Longford, Youths, et al? We should be able to support a more stable league in theory, by similar metrics you could think there are too many teams in I.L. to allow significant growth. Apart from a cluttered sporting industry, years of neglect means there is an awful lot needed to facilitate greater stability that then you look to increase the number of clubs, restructure a league, FT requirements above a certain level. For me talk about most other issues are premature - I do think the development of a full pyramid system should be started but again too much too soon could do a lot of damage if clubs drop out or theres lttle interest in joining up. Like in England youd nearly need the FAI to insist that every competative league, non recreational, in some way feeds in to the pyramid directly tying in grassroots. Maybe a sense of ownership in a national league system would increase further interest in the upper tiers adding to attendances and overall stability.....if we ever feed players directly to the national side on a regular basis, no tokenism, then whatever is being done is working.

[EalingGreen]

We should be able to support a more stable league in theory

Undoubtedly and not just more stable, but a lot bigger: x 2.5 the population of NI (plus Derry City), a wealthier one at that and none of the sectarian/political stuff which bedevils the IL.

... by similar metrics you could think there are too many teams in I.L. to allow significant growth.

I'm sorry, but 24 Senior teams (plus 14 x Premier Intermediate) IS growth. While there have been nowhere near the same number of financial collapses with clubs going under etc as has been seen in the LOI.

Take Dungannon Swifts for example. Not one of the traditional, "founding" IL clubs, but formed in 1949 in a provincial town of 15k which also has a very strong rugby and GAA tradition. Entered the IL comparatively recently in 1997, since when they have always held their own. Very tidy wee ground which they own, live within their means. In conjunction with nearby Dungannon Youth, they have helped develop a number of decent players from the area, most notably Niall McGinn and Conor Bradley.

Under the old IL closed shop, clubs like Swifts (plus eg Ballinamallard, Warrenpoint and Loughgall etc) could simply never have emerged, while there must be a dozen or more Dungannons in ROI which are nowhere near LOI football.

I do think the development of a full pyramid system should be started but again too much too soon could do a lot of damage if clubs drop out or theres lttle interest in joining up.

Interesting term "drop out". Does that imply the introduction of a third tier as the first step towards a pyramid? For if it does, it will fail just as surely as eg the 'A' League.

For the whole point about a pyramid, whether Egyptian or Football, is that you build from the bottom up, not from the top down. That way you avoid clubs being parachuted in before they're ready and at too high a level etc, thereby risking dropping out completely.

Whereas if you build upwards, teams rise to find their natural level, so that even should they experience a bad couple of seasons, rather than falling off a cliff, they only need drop down a level until they stabilise and go again. Of course many teams will never be able to, or even want to, rise above eg a fourth or fifth tier, but instead be content to stay at their preferred level, whether Intermediate (semi-pro), or even Junior (Amateur). But even while they're doing so, they can still provide decent competition for other, more ambitious clubs who are on their way up.

All of which is before you address the "elephant in the room" i.e. the Summer vs Winter calendar.

I doLike in England youd nearly need the FAI to insist that every competative league, non recreational, in some way feeds in to the pyramid directly tying in grassroots. Maybe a sense of ownership in a national league system would increase further interest in the upper tiers adding to attendances and overall stability....if we ever feed players directly to the national side on a regular basis, no tokenism, then whatever is being done is working.

Not just in England, but in nearly every other European country, including those of ROI's size and smaller.

While as regards your bold, there is, of course, another approach which might just be preferable for the FAI/LOI to exploit, and certainly easier: namely concentrate resources ruthlessly on the same core of a dozen or so established, f-t clubs, to provide them with the best facilities, coaches and Academies etc, so as to set up a production line of talent. This would be the same as eg the IRFU, who concentrate their resources heavily on the four inter-Pro teams, albeit to the detriment of the old, traditional club structure beneath. These last have to find their own level as Community clubs etc, which would likely be the outlet open to the remaining football clubs outside the 'chosen few' of the LOI.

[LTFC]

What do we reckon our clubs turnover a year? Anyone at 4mplus pa? How many between 3m and 4m, or 2m and 3m or 1m and 2m - I would guess Drogs, Sligo, Waterford, Dubdalk, maybe Galway are 1m to 2m. Bohs/Pats/Derry 2-3m, with maybe Rovers over the 3m.

Aside, all bar Cork in first are well below the 1m.

[Nesta99]

Undoubtedly and not just more stable, but a lot bigger: x 2.5 the population of NI (plus Derry City), a wealthier one at that and none of the sectarian/political stuff which bedevils the IL.

I'm sorry, but 24 Senior teams (plus 14 x Premier Intermediate) IS growth. While there have been nowhere near the same number of financial collapses with clubs going under etc as has been seen in the LOI.

Take Dungannon Swifts for example. Not one of the traditional, "founding" IL clubs, but formed in 1949 in a provincial town of 15k which also has a very strong rugby and GAA tradition. Entered the IL comparatively recently in 1997, since when they have always held their own. Very tidy wee ground which they own, live within their means. In conjunction with nearby Dungannon Youth, they have helped develop a number of decent players from the area, most notably Niall McGinn and Conor Bradley.

Under the old IL closed shop, clubs like Swifts (plus eg Ballinamallard, Warrenpoint and Loughgall etc) could simply never have emerged, while there must be a dozen or more Dungannons in ROI which are nowhere near LOI football.

Interesting term "drop out". Does that imply the introduction of a third tier as the first step towards a pyramid? For if it does, it will fail just as surely as eg the 'A' League.

For the whole point about a pyramid, whether Egyptian or Football, is that you build from the bottom up, not from the top down. That way you avoid clubs being parachuted in before they're ready and at too high a level etc, thereby risking dropping out completely.

Whereas if you build upwards, teams rise to find their natural level, so that even should they experience a bad couple of seasons, rather than falling off a cliff, they only need drop down a level until they stabilise and go again. Of course many teams will never be able to, or even want to, rise above eg a fourth or fifth tier, but instead be content to stay at their preferred level, whether Intermediate (semi-pro), or even Junior (Amateur). But even while they're doing so, they can still provide decent competition for other, more ambitious clubs who are on their way up.

All of which is before you address the "elephant in the room" i.e. the Summer vs Winter calendar.


Not just in England, but in nearly every other European country, including those of ROI's size and smaller.

While as regards your bold, there is, of course, another approach which might just be preferable for the FAI/LOI to exploit and certainly easier: namely concentrate resources ruthlessly on the same core of a dozen or so established, f-t clubs, to provide them with the best facilities, coaches and Academies etc, so as to set up a production line of talent. This would be the same as eg the IRFU, who concentrate their resources heavily on the four inter-Pro teams, albeit to the detriment of the old, traditional club structure beneath. These last have to find their own level as Community clubs etc, which would likely be the outlet open to the remaining football clubs outside the 'chosen few' of the LOI.

Apologies, on the 1st point of expansion, I was thinking more of growth in attendances - more clubs in a small country could in theory dilute attendance potential weakening things to some extent. I know its not necessarily evidence based, my experience in Essex eg is that people supported say Southend and also Spurs/West Ham/Arsenal and would attend both and not deride the lower tierd quality of football and facilities. My experience of Irish fans is to go to LoI and somehow expect Champions League standard of football. If you have the former in IL and someone could support their junior or intermediate club and have a top end club grand. If its an exclusive nature of supporter in IL then it is possible to have too many clubs. If I may liken it to gaelic football clubs just in Dundalk, there are so many (7 or 8) all encroaching on eachother catchement and all arguably weaker, less potential for growth in support and subsequent success etc. in comparison, Drogheda clubs, lesser in number, and some rural clubs in the county dominate a lot more because support, talent and all that goes with are concentrated in those areas with less clubs and so ultimately are stronger. But more clubs does mean greater participation too so its just finding a balance for me.

The FAI need to just align all seasons, sanction or exclude leagues that dont eg non inclusion in say a FAI participation insurance cover, no access to official referees. Until the FAI make a stand one way or another there wont be an agreement by individual leagues to chance. Even partial changes to season to overlap would be a start. If the issue for current junior and intermediate clubs wasnt part of a power struggle and a dismissiveness of the senior game then actual concern.

I would agree with the last highlighted point but then my club would be i the mix. If my club was not in that group Id be calling the suggestion shortsighted and cheap quick fix stuff. A prime example of why thing have difficulty getting done with a dollop of self interest in any of us when it suits.

[EalingGreen]

Apologies, on the 1st point of expansion, I was thinking more of growth in attendances - more clubs in a small country could in theory dilute attendance potential weakening things to some extent. I know its not necessarily evidence based, my experience in Essex eg is that people supported say Southend and also Spurs/West Ham/Arsenal and would attend both and not deride the lower tierd quality of football and facilities. My experience of Irish fans is to go to LoI and somehow expect Champions League standard of football. If you have the former in IL and someone could support their junior or intermediate club and have a top end club grand. If its an exclusive nature of supporter in IL then it is possible to have too many clubs. If I may liken it to gaelic football clubs just in Dundalk, there are so many (7 or 8) all encroaching on eachother catchement and all arguably weaker, less potential for growth in support and subsequent success etc. in comparison, Drogheda clubs, lesser in number, and some rural clubs in the county dominate a lot more because support, talent and all that goes with are concentrated in those areas with less clubs and so ultimately are stronger. But more clubs does mean greater participation too so its just finding a balance for me.

Only if you have reached "peak attendance", and I cannot believe that you are anywhere near that. Of course it is very difficult to capitalise on potential growth, with the obstacles to be overcome already only too obvious.

But when you look at what the Dublin clubs are doing, esp Shams in a new location, there surely has to be more potential in both Dublin and the regions, no? I mean, if you'd forecast even 10 years ago that crowds would reach their present level, people would have laughed. (Same in IL too.)

But I feel sure that the plan must be to grow from the bottom up, starting with your existing football heartlands, then expanding upwards and beyond as overall interest grows. On which point, looking to examples in England or GAA etc is important, but really, you need to look first at who currently attends LOI football and why, in order to see how others like them could be attracted to come along, if only on a casual basis to start with, and in the hope that some at least will become regulars. And at the same time, see who and why people attend games below LOI level, to see how you might link up (it's that pesky pyramid again).

The FAI need to just align all seasons, sanction or exclude leagues that dont eg non inclusion in say a FAI participation insurance cover, no access to official referees. Until the FAI make a stand one way or another there wont be an agreement by individual leagues to chance. Even partial changes to season to overlap would be a start. If the issue for current junior and intermediate clubs wasnt part of a power struggle and a dismissiveness of the senior game then actual concern.

Undoubtedly. And that won't be quick or easy, as I'm sure you appreciate better than me.

Of course as a traditionalist who's attached to the winter game, and opposes occasional calls for a summer season for the IL, I'd say it should be quicker and easier to move the LOI back to winter football, than move the rest of the game to summer football, but I daresay that's never going to happen!

I would agree with the last highlighted point but then my club would be i the mix. If my club was not in that group Id be calling the suggestion shortsighted and cheap quick fix stuff. A prime example of why thing have difficulty getting done with a dollop of self interest in any of us when it suits.

If that strategy were adopted, then it would be accepting that future growth in the Senior, professional game could only ever come from the Dirty Doze.... er... !2 Centres of Excellence, with all the rest cast off into the recreational or Community sphere, Irish rugby-style. (Which I'm sure GAA in particular, would absolutely love, since they could hope to achieve or entrench dominance everywhere else).

But rather than just drift into it, you have to be certain that that's what's wanted/needed, since once you go down that road there's no turning back.