Rugby Union 2008

**pete** · 26/09/2008, 4:21 PM

Leinster v Munster first big game of the season.

Battle of the new kids - Fitzgerald & Earls?
Seems Leinster have gone for more forward orientated game whereas Munster are moving to more open game. Don't think these games are very expansive so I would make Leinster favourites especially as Contepomi not at 10.

Leinster:
G Dempsey, S Horgan, B O'Driscoll, F Contepomi, L Fitzgerald, J Sexton, C Whitaker, R McCormack, B Jackman, CJ Van Der Linde, L Cullen (C), M O'Kelly, R Elsom, S Jennings, J Heaslip
Replacements: S Wright, J Fogarty, T Hogan, C Jowitt, S O'Brien, C Keane, R Kearney

Munster:
K Earls; D Howlett, R Tipoki, L Mafi, I Dowling; R O'Gara, T O'Leary; M Horan, J Flannery, J Hayes; P O'Connell (C), D O'Callaghan; D Ryan, D Wallace, J Melck.
Replacements: F Sheahan, F Pucciariello, J O'Sullivan, A Quinlan, P Stringer, P Warwick, B Murphy.

**pete** · 28/09/2008, 10:15 PM

Leinster 0 Munster 18.

I didn't see the start wegere Contepomi bottled it again missing 3 penalty. From bits I saw Munster were dominant and spent almost the remainder of the game in the Leinster 22. Their defence was good but tired in the end.

Player rotation seems to have given Munster an extra dimension & squad seems all the stronger for it. Mafi, Tipoki, Howlett & Earls are a potent force.

**joeSoap** · 29/09/2008, 10:06 AM

Pretty dour weekend for Irish rugby. 3 of the 4 sides participating in the Magners League failed to score a single point between them. That is worrying and shocking. To think that a side that boasts a backline that includes Contepomi, O'Driscoll, Horgan, Dempsey, Rob Kearney and Luke Fitzgerald can't register a single score against any opposition is frighteningly worrying. It does not bode well for the Six Nations. I'm not even going to get started on Connacht and Ulster, who shipped 101 points between them without reply.

Munster, on the other hand, continue to go from strength to strength, with Tipoki, Mafi and Howlett adding a lot of All Black flair to the backline, and Keith Earls now fulfilling all the promise we saw at underage level. The lad is an amazing all round talent, even moreso than Luke Fitzgerald in my book, and that is saying a hell of a lot. O'Gara pulls the strings nicely, and the forwards are quite a unit. When you have the back up they have on the bench, it is easy to see why they will be very very hard to beat in defence of the Heineken Cup. Special mention must go to McGahan the coach, who has added new dimensions to their game, and has been accepted by one and all as an honorary Munster man already.

The only area of concern for them has to be their lineout, which is a shambles, but at least they have time to work on it.

I watched Leicester Tigers v Wssps on Friday night. All Wasps scores incidentally came from or were set up by men who had to leave Munster becasue they weren't able to break into the team; Jeremy Staunton, Eoin Reddan and Varley the hooker. The standard of the English club game seems to be deteriorating, and the Magners League is easily a better, stronger league than it now. Good sign that....

**pete** · 29/09/2008, 10:26 AM

I think Earls will progress more at Munster than Kearney & Fitzgerald at Leinster due to the different players around him & winning mentality.

Ireland have a problem at centre as Darcy while injured is a spent force anyway. O'Driscoll has peaked but still good enough at this stage. Horgans days are probably also numbered. Earls promotion might come sooner than expected & could make the bench with Kearney & Fitzgerald starting.

Not judging him on one game but Cheika does not impress me. I think his days may be numbered also.

**Dodge** · 29/09/2008, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by joeSoap

The standard of the English club game seems to be deteriorating, and the Magners League is easily a better, stronger league than it now. Good sign that....

Don't think you can say that just after talking about he rubbish put out by Ulster and Connaught

**joeSoap** · 29/09/2008, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

Don't think you can say that just after talking about he rubbish put out by Ulster and Connaught

Connacht, and to a lesser degree Ulster have been consistently shyte over the past number of years. If you take a look at the top four clubs in the Magners League, Munster, Leinster, Ospreys and Cardiff Blues, I believe all four to be far superior to anything the English Premiership has to offer this season. This I believe will be proven in the Heineken Cup. Every league has its dregs...the Magners has Connacht, and to a lesser extent, Ulster and the Dragons. But the dregs of the Premiership such as Newcastle, Bristol, Worcester and Northampton drag that league down more. The standard of play by Leicester, Wasps and Gloucester has been quite poor so far this season. Only Sale have shown respectable form this far.

**Schumi** · 29/09/2008, 11:46 AM

The top of the Magner's League is, give or take, on a par with the top of the Guiness Premiership over the last couple of years (I haven't seen any GP games this year so I don't know if that's changed appreciably) but the bottom is much weaker. Teams like Connacht, Dragons, Glasgow and (recently) Ulster have performed much more poorly in European competition than lower end GP teams. The Challange Cup has been an English benefit for the last few years.

**Macy** · 29/09/2008, 1:02 PM

Originally Posted by pete

Not judging him on one game but Cheika does not impress me. I think his days may be numbered also.

Except you kinda are, given that last season was respectable - winning the Celtic League, and some good wins in the European Cup, albeit with the disappointment of not coming through the group.

Far too early in the season to be making judgements on players or teams, imo. Arguably Munsters real strength has been peaking at the right time, whereas Leinster being fast out of the blocks and fading by the time the business end of the european group stages. If Munster can genuinely maintain their early form then they'll be very hard to beat by anyone, but that's still an if at this stage.

**OneRedArmy** · 29/09/2008, 1:03 PM

Complete over-simplification but the English club game over the last 5+ years has been based squarely on slowing the game down, exactly what the ELVs have set out to stop (interestingly Munster played the same game up until a few years ago but the arrival of the Kiwi's made them much more expansive and McGahan is taking this even further).

I've no doubt the top Irish and Welsh clubs are much stronger than the English. Connaught aren't funded to be any better than they are and Ulster and the Scots are a complete mess so we can discount them.

Not sure what this tells us though, other than we know which teams will be competitive in the Heineken Cup

**Dodge** · 29/09/2008, 1:05 PM

yeah, the French...

**pete** · 29/09/2008, 1:22 PM

Top half of the Magniers would compete in the English Premiership but the bottom half of the Magniers would be completely outclassed. The English league is quiet strong & rarely any really poor teams any more.

Lack of relegation means will always end up with the likes of Connacht.

Chieka has not impressed in recent season & IMO he has taken that team as far as they can go. The HC semi final against Munster in Lansdowne sums up the team for me.

**Aberdonian Stu** · 29/09/2008, 1:46 PM

Have to disagree on Earls. He was good last night but otherwise he's looked hapless to the point of being a major risk to the team under the high ball in most games. Until he gets that sorted he will be a liability to any side, including Munster.

The top half of the Magners is a match for the GP's best, possibly even superior, but the bottom half is woeful and you can't discount 5 teams out of hand. Dragons, Ulster, Connacht, Glasgow & Edinburgh are just shocking. That said I still reckon Leinster will make a hames of its trip to Edinburgh in Europe.

Cheika has consistently developed Leinster over the course of his tenure. Remember when he arrived the team was in a major transitional phase. The Ella write-off season, where nearly 60 players started at different stages due to the exceptional injury woes, was followed by a less than calm year with Kidney.

Cheika has managed to develop the outfit he now has into a much better side than the one he inherited. He's brought in players in positions where Leinster traditionally struggles, in particular prop, to give the side more teeth. Furthermore the strength in depth has never been better.

Yes the side didn't do well last night and the decision to give Sexton so little gametime before this match was an error, but on whole he has made substantial improvements to the side and to remove him would be lunacy.

**Bald Student** · 29/09/2008, 2:22 PM

I'll have to watch one of the reruns on Setanta with sober eyes before I make my mind up fully but I think the half backs were the main difference between the teams.

From a Leinster point of view we were all over the Munster lineout, the scrums were even enough and the defence held firm. That's a good platform to build from but the length of time it took the ball to pass from Whitacer, through Sexton and to the midfield left the outside backs with no space to work in. That left us with little attacking threat.

The other main problem was keeping possession on the ground. Munster has a very strong counter rucking game but even against the two Welsh teams we've played we seemed almost afraid to bring the ball into contact. We beat the Ospreys with about 1/3 of the possession but that won't happen against better teams.

**OneRedArmy** · 29/09/2008, 3:08 PM

As a non-Munster or Leinster neutral, I completely disagree with you Aberdonian Stu.

I don't think Cheika has made any material progress at all. Leinster are further away from winning the Heineken if anything.

PS Earls is a 13 being played at 15, bit harsh to judge him as a full back at this stage.

**pete** · 29/09/2008, 3:44 PM

Would agree Earls not great under the high ball but he is very inexperienced & is progressing very quickly. I am a little surprised Earls has not been swapped with Howlett for some games.

The new rules seems to take away the lineout & rollling maul as attacking platforms so it is clear Munster have to change. From what I have seen their passing in contact this season has been really impressive.

Ulster have gone backwards in a massive way. Best chance Connacht will ever have of finishing above them.

**rebus2008** · 29/09/2008, 3:45 PM

Maybe if certain Leinster players didn't reside around the bar stools of Coppers until 6am late last week, they'd have managed even a score. 0 from 3 for the kicker now makes sense. Professional in name and wage but little else.

**Bald Student** · 29/09/2008, 3:47 PM

Originally Posted by rebus2008

Maybe if certain Leinster players didn't reside around the bar stools of Coppers until 6am late last week, they'd have managed even a score.

I think the linear nature of time precludes that.

**pete** · 29/09/2008, 4:07 PM

I had a look at the records & was unable to find the last time Leinster held scoreless let alone at home. I gave up going further back than start of pro era.

**OneRedArmy** · 29/09/2008, 4:20 PM

Originally Posted by rebus2008

Maybe if certain Leinster players didn't reside around the bar stools of Coppers until 6am late last week, they'd have managed even a score. 0 from 3 for the kicker now makes sense. Professional in name and wage but little else.

I thought they moved the closing hours forward not back?

I may have to consider returning to Coppers in that case (shudder).

**Aberdonian Stu** · 30/09/2008, 8:15 AM

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

I don't think Cheika has made any material progress at all. Leinster are further away from winning the Heineken if anything.

Losing just 3 of 18 Magners League games is substantial progress. Obviously it's not the Ken but the biggest issue Leinster had in previous years was consistency and this is an area he has focussed on.

It was all well and good playing rugby that was fun to watch but when it was that high risk a game and the depth on the bench is as low as it was then consistency was bound to suffer.

Even after the defeat on Sunday, Leinster are entering this season with their best chance of winning in Europe since the end of Williams' tenure.

Cheika's reached as many Heineken Cup semis and won as many Magners' league titles as Williams, with a lot less woeful seasons along the way, only under Cheika the side looks capable of suffering an injury to an O'Driscoll or Heaslip without losing its edge.