Attendances 2024

[D24Saint]

I think there was space for Sporting Fingal in the league but Cabinteely have shown that there is little appetite elsewhere in the county.

[EalingGreen]

But the bottom line is that if you ask LOI fans if they would have a preference for more clubs in Dublin or more elsewhere in the country, the latter would win out.

Fine.

But how does "asking the fans" translate into actually producing new Senior teams, whether in Dublin or elsewhere?

The question should not be where new clubs might come from, rather it should be what kind of club should you be looking for. Do they already exist, but are being somehow excluded? Or if they don't exist, how can you encourage and develop them?

On which point you need a League structure which encourages and rewards ambitious, progressive and sustainable Intermediate clubs to aim for Senior, LOI football, thereby creating extra competition throughout the whole set-up.

And whether those clubs should all come from Dublin, or none of them, shouldn't much matter, other than for the look of it.

P.S. To get the thread back on topic, how much of the impressive growth in LOI attendances has come from Dublin clubs, and how much from provincial clubs, both percentage-wise, and in actual terms? (Nigel? Anyone?)

For in order to be sustainable, clubs ultimately need to base their finances on fans through the turnstiles. And if Dublin is outperforming other regions in this respect, then unless it has reached saturation point, shouldn't you be looking to capitalise on that further?

[EatYerGreens]

I think there was space for Sporting Fingal in the league but Cabinteely have shown that there is little appetite elsewhere in the county.

Despite being pretty successful, and also trying quite hard on the promotional side of things, Sporting Fongal still didn't generate a fanbase for itself in a well-populated area. Admittedly they didn't havev a lot of time to do so - but they also did have the benefit of a big showpiece cup final event to draw new supporters in. Maybe they would have fared better under the post-Covid eraof greaterinterest in the LOI. Or maybe the same issues that prevented them from doing so then would just have continued into now (i.e. the fact that anyone in North Dublin who wants to follow LOI has 2 other well-established clubs to choose from instead).

I coud see a club like Ballymun maybe carving a niche for themselves in the LOI First Division. But it's important to note that whilst there have been multiple attempts over the last 40yrs (Sporting Fingal, St Francis, St James's Gate twice, Dublin City, Cabinteely, Home Farm everything), the last successful/sustained entry of a Dublin club into the LOI was 73yrs ago (St Pats in 1951)

[EalingGreen]

But it's important to note that whilst there have been multiple attempts over the last 40yrs (Sporting Fingal, St Francis, St James's Gate twice, Dublin City, Cabinteely, Home Farm everything), the last successful/sustained entry of a Dublin club into the LOI was 73yrs ago (St Pats in 1951)

In the 40 years since the LOI reorganisation in 1985, when two or three clubs were elected to the new second tier, how many clubs from outside Dublin have become "successful/sustained" in the league?

UCD and Derry are both exceptions to the rule we're discussing, and so not able to be replicated, so that leaves Wexford and Kerry. I'm not sure you could call Wexford esp "successful", and would they be "sustainable" without Mick Wallace? (genuine question). Either way, I'll give you that one.

As for Kerry, it's too early to say - looking purely from the outside, my guess is that it could still go either way, but I'm open to correction on that.

[EatYerGreens]

In the 40 years since the LOI reorganisation in 1985, when two or three clubs were elected to the new second tier, how many clubs from outside Dublin have become "successful/sustained" in the league?

UCD and Derry are both exceptions to the rule we're discussing, and so not able to be replicated, so that leaves Wexford and Kerry. I'm not sure you could call Wexford esp "successful", and would they be "sustainable" without Mick Wallace? (genuine question). Either way, I'll give you that one.

As for Kerry, it's too early to say - looking purely from the outside, my guess is that it could still go either way, but I'm open to correction on that.

UCD joined the league in 1979 (apologies : I omitted them when talking about the last Dub club to join the LOI and stay the distance ).

Cork and Longford joined the league in 1984, and both are still going.

Bray, Cobh and Derry joined the league in 1985 and are still going.

Wexford joined the league in 2007 and are still going.

So there's SIX regional clubs, excluding Kerry, who have joined and stayed the distance since the 1980s (albeit with a brief hiatus for Cobh). No Dublin clubs have managed to do that over the same period, even though quite a few have tried (including an established former league club who tried twice).

[joey B]

In the 40 years since the LOI reorganisation in 1985, when two or three clubs were elected to the new second tier, how many clubs from outside Dublin have become "successful/sustained" in the league?

UCD and Derry are both exceptions to the rule we're discussing, and so not able to be replicated, so that leaves Wexford and Kerry. I'm not sure you could call Wexford esp "successful", and would they be "sustainable" without Mick Wallace? (genuine question). Either way, I'll give you that one.

As for Kerry, it's too early to say - looking purely from the outside, my guess is that it could still go either way, but I'm open to correction on that.

I don’t think Mick Wallace is involved with Wexford Fc anymore ,as far as I know they moved to a Supporters Co Op model in 2017 and have since got investment from other sources ….

[EalingGreen]

UCD joined the league in 1979 (apologies : I omitted them when talking about the last Dub club to join the LOI and stay the distance ).

Cork and Longford joined the league in 1984, and both are still going.

Bray, Cobh and Derry joined the league in 1985 and are still going.

Wexford joined the league in 2007 and are still going.

So there's SIX regional clubs, excluding Kerry, who have joined and stayed the distance since the 1980s (albeit with a brief hiatus for Cobh). No Dublin clubs have managed to do that over the same period, even though quite a few have tried (including an established former league club who tried twice).

"Six"?

Some creative accounting there! The "Cork" you cite is hardly a new entrant, more a revival of any number of Cork clubs in the past. Certainly not a new part of the country. Longford were elected in 1984 (as a replacement for s.o.?), while Bray and Cobh were both elected following a major redevelopment of the LOI in 1985 (new 1st Division introoduced), meaning that in the absence of any future such redevelopment - and there's none in sight - that isn't able to be repeated.

As for DCFC, come on, they had been an established Senior league club for over half a century before they fell into the lap of the LOI. Or do you somehow imagine that you're going to find more new LOI clubs from NI?

As for all the other Dublin clubs who've tried and failed, are you forgetting all the non-Dublin clubs who've done the same? Thurles Town, Newcastle West, Salthill, Mervue, Monaghan, Kilkenny City, Kildare Co. - any more?

Which surely shows that it is a major structural problem which prevents new clubs from entering the LOI, not a geographical one.

Meanwhile, to get this back on the topic of attendances again, has anyone calculated where the last few seasons' increases have come from, along the lines of Dublin clubs vs non-Dublin ones?

[EatYerGreens]

"Six"?

Some creative accounting there! The "Cork" you cite is hardly a new entrant, more a revival of any number of Cork clubs in the past. Certainly not a new part of the country. Longford were elected in 1984 (as a replacement for s.o.?), while Bray and Cobh were both elected following a major redevelopment of the LOI in 1985 (new 1st Division introoduced), meaning that in the absence of any future such redevelopment - and there's none in sight - that isn't able to be repeated.

As for DCFC, come on, they had been an established Senior league club for over half a century before they fell into the lap of the LOI. Or do you somehow imagine that you're going to find more new LOI clubs from NI?

As for all the other Dublin clubs who've tried and failed, are you forgetting all the non-Dublin clubs who've done the same? Thurles Town, Newcastle West, Salthill, Mervue, Monaghan, Kilkenny City, Kildare Co. - any more?

Which surely shows that it is a major structural problem which prevents new clubs from entering the LOI, not a geographical one.

Meanwhile, to get this back on the topic of attendances again, has anyone calculated where the last few seasons' increases have come from, along the lines of Dublin clubs vs non-Dublin ones?

You never miss an opportunity for a bit of Nordy-splaining or to have subtle digs at the LOI do you?

The fundamental point still stands. Multiple clubs based outside Dublin have joined the league over the last 40yrs and stayed the distance. Not a single one from Dublin has, despite many trying. Which kinda undermines the original point really : that there is room for more clubs in Dublin.

[EalingGreen]

You never miss an opportunity for a bit of Nordy-splaining or to have subtle digs at the LOI do you?

Come off it! Your attempt to claim DCFC as some sort of "success" for the regionalisation of the LOI beyond Dublin was risible. Or did you imagine no-one would notice?

The fundamental point still stands. Multiple clubs based outside Dublin have joined the league over the last 40yrs and stayed the distance. Not a single one from Dublin has, despite many trying. Which kinda undermines the original point really : that there is room for more clubs in Dublin.

"Multiple"?

Aside from the clubs elected in the reorganisation of 1984/85, there has been (I think) precisely one new, regional club which has entered the league in the following (ahem) 39 years and lasted. And with all due respect, Wexford have hardly stormed the league, have they?

As for the failed Dublin attempts, how does mere location explain all the failed Regional attempts I listed? It's clearly a structural problem, not a geographical one.

[nigel-harps1954]

Meanwhile, to get this back on the topic of attendances again, has anyone calculated where the last few seasons' increases have come from, along the lines of Dublin clubs vs non-Dublin ones?

It is indeed largely Dublin. There's been fairly minor increases across the rest of the board, and mostly at Premier Division level. The First Division averaging 1,000, or thereabouts, is definitely a boost, but nothing substantial.

Take 10 years ago, versus this season, for example (excluding Shamrock Rovers B and Kerry FC for balance).

End of season average for Dublin teams - 1,232
End of season average for the rest of the league - 1,141

2024, so far;

Current average for Dublin teams - 4,052
Current average rest of the league - 1,855

[EalingGreen]

It is indeed largely Dublin. There's been fairly minor increases across the rest of the board, and mostly at Premier Division level. The First Division averaging 1,000, or thereabouts, is definitely a boost, but nothing substantial.

Take 10 years ago, versus this season, for example (excluding Shamrock Rovers B and Kerry FC for balance).

End of season average for Dublin teams - 1,232
End of season average for the rest of the league - 1,141

2024, so far;

Current average for Dublin teams - 4,052
Current average rest of the league - 1,855

Interesting stuff.

And to take it further, do you have any idea whether/which clubs may be being inhibited by capacity constraints? For example, I believe Shamrock Rvrs are generally able to accommodate most/all who wish to attend, as opposed eg to Derry, who could usually accomodate more if they were allowed to.

Is this maybe a Dublin stadium thing, to explain their clubs' big increases and the regional clubs' smaller increases?

[LTFC]

The reasons for the growth in the clubs attendances, particularly the Dublin clubs has not been fully explained, and the little I know of it would be that Pats and Bohs both put a significant effort into their community relations, albeit different strategies, and that has borne fruit with steady growth since the covid hiatus. Rovers were probably a little further down that road, with SHels getting in on the act - another poster said their community officer came from Rovers I think.

In terms of the rural areas, really difficult to get a club with an identity that attracts people from all over the county - Athlone for example would have little or no support from the second largest town in Westmeath and despite a quarter of Athlone being in Roscommon, people in the rest of Roscommon would not be following them. Kerry would have similar challenge, getting the Killarney and Listowel people following them.

We are in a small county with the largest town having 11,000 people, and the county having less than 50,000. Us getting 1000 through the gate is like one of the Dublin clubs getting 30,000, or if we want the 4 Dublin clubs getting 30,000 between them.

[nr637]

Did'nt Galway & Thurles Town join at the same time, a Galway team have more or less been in the league ever since except for 2012, I think while Thurles Town lasted about four years before they withdrew!

[EalingGreen]

Did'nt Galway & Thurles Town join at the same time, a Galway team have more or less been in the league ever since except for 2012, I think while Thurles Town lasted about four years before they withdrew!

Re the former:
"[Galway Utd FC] were founded as Galway Rovers F.C. during the 1930s. They made their League of Ireland debut in 1977–78 and changed their name to Galway United in 1981–82. After suffering financial difficulties, the club dropped out of the League of Ireland after the 2011 season but in 2014 Galway United returned initially playing as Galway F.C. for a season."
So while technically the present team may be a "new" one (unsure?), effectively they're the latest incarnation of a previous one which has been in the LOI for 47 years.

Re the latter:
"Thurles Town A.F.C. was formed in 1950. In 1977 they merged with Peake Villa to become Thurles Town F.C. and in order to enter a team in the League of Ireland. Thurles Town played in the League of Ireland from 1977–78 until 1981–82."

[LTFC]

Missing:
Longford v Treaty - 13th May


Bohs - 4,308 (4,243 {2023}; 3,209 {2022};2,878{19}; 2,148; 2,006; 1,627; 1,724; 1,395; 1,597; 1,496; 1,488)
Derry - 2,938 (3,336; 3,184; 2,049; 2,297; 1,517; 1,563; 1,124; 1,106; 1,446; 1,460; 2,135)
Drogheda - 2,008 (1,916; 1,941; 721 FD; ; 377 FD; 850; 583 FD; 813; 1,064; 817; 977; 811)
Dundalk - 2,497 (2,636; 2,689; 2,775; 2,738; 2,674; 2,738; 3,158; 2,534; 1,997; 949; 1,355)
Galway - 3,110 (2,018 FD; 2,081 FD; 780 FD; 746 FD; 1,376; 1,169; 1,290; 975 FD)
Pat's - 4,547 (4,232; 3,489; 1,919; 1,621; 1,504; 1,088; 1,321; 1,386; 1,687; 1,474; 1,346)
Rovers - 6,235 (6,109; 5,379; 3,384; 2,749; 2,809; 2,041; 2,890; 2,269; 2,763; 3,127; 3,779)
Shels - 4,195 (3,393; 2,913; 1,071 FD; 654 FD; 496 FD; 554 FD; 596 FD; 713 FD; 1,114; 1,187; 781 FD)
Sligo - 2,773 (2,555; 2,166; 1,995; 1,853; 1,717; 1,750; 1,750; 1,959; 2,342; 3,007; 2,103)
Waterford - 2,925 (1,833 FD; 1,705 FD; 1,496; 2,329; 1,550 FD; 314 FD; 460 FD; 470 FD; 478 FD; 453 FD; 466 FD)

FIRST DIVISION

Athlone - 675 (872; 307; 382; 130; 154; 156; 314; 653 PD; 754; 271; 200)
Bray - 656 (663; 482; 773; 643 PD; 966 PD; 957 PD; 769 PD; 718 PD; 891 PD; 965 PD; 1,121 PD)
Cobh - 878 (1,020; 872; 268; 236; 358; 403; 366; 223; 439; 2008 - 1,122 PD; 681)
Cork - 3,380 (3,666 PD; 3,517; 2,505 PD; 4,245 PD; 4,559 PD; 2,533 PD; 3,263 PD; 3,777 PD; 1,965 PD; 2,786 PD; 2,128)
Harps - 1,198 (1,154; 1,293 PD; 1,154 PD; 708; 1,202 PD; 1,216 PD; 784; 449; 479; 429; 433; 644)
Kerry - 665 (784)
Longford - 517 (679; 500; 610; 449; 342; 488 PD; 803 PD; 567; 379; 365; 315)
Treaty - 1,566 (642; 695)
UCD - 316 (809 PD; 953 PD; 739 PD; 365; 236; 297; 216; 397 PD; 487 PD; 506 PD; 558 PD; 610 PD)
Wexford - 595 (689; 445; 235; 181; 338; 585 PD; 553; 331; 227; 302; 216)

PREMIER AVERAGE: 3,613 (3,289; 2,687; 2,185; 2,170; 1,902; 1,476; 1,681; 1,502; 1,566; 1,630; 1,547)
FIRST DIVISION AVERAGE: 992 (1,035; 1,193; 586; 413; 477; 476; 486; 495; 391; 372; 578)

OVERALL AVERAGE: 2,333 (2,162; 2,051; 1,500; 1,249; 1,387; 1,117; 1,249; 1,160; 1,140; 1,125; 1,110)


OVERALL PREMIER ATTENDANCE: 321,564 (592,093; 486,365; 393,238; 316,515; 376,627; 292,204; 332,805; 297,334)
OVERALL FIRST ATTENDANCE: 84,327 (186,369; 178,000; 79,115; 55,756; 53,461; 52,807; 54,474; 55,408)

OVERALL COMBINED ATTENDANCE: 405,891 (778,462; 664,365; 472,353; 372,271; 430,088; 345,011; 387,279; 352,742)

I'd stick with 200 for Longford V Treaty Nigel.

[LTFC]

Missing:
Longford v Treaty - 13th May


Bohs - 4,308 (4,243 {2023}; 3,209 {2022};2,878{19}; 2,148; 2,006; 1,627; 1,724; 1,395; 1,597; 1,496; 1,488)
Derry - 2,938 (3,336; 3,184; 2,049; 2,297; 1,517; 1,563; 1,124; 1,106; 1,446; 1,460; 2,135)
Drogheda - 2,008 (1,916; 1,941; 721 FD; ; 377 FD; 850; 583 FD; 813; 1,064; 817; 977; 811)
Dundalk - 2,497 (2,636; 2,689; 2,775; 2,738; 2,674; 2,738; 3,158; 2,534; 1,997; 949; 1,355)
Galway - 3,110 (2,018 FD; 2,081 FD; 780 FD; 746 FD; 1,376; 1,169; 1,290; 975 FD)
Pat's - 4,547 (4,232; 3,489; 1,919; 1,621; 1,504; 1,088; 1,321; 1,386; 1,687; 1,474; 1,346)
Rovers - 6,235 (6,109; 5,379; 3,384; 2,749; 2,809; 2,041; 2,890; 2,269; 2,763; 3,127; 3,779)
Shels - 4,195 (3,393; 2,913; 1,071 FD; 654 FD; 496 FD; 554 FD; 596 FD; 713 FD; 1,114; 1,187; 781 FD)
Sligo - 2,773 (2,555; 2,166; 1,995; 1,853; 1,717; 1,750; 1,750; 1,959; 2,342; 3,007; 2,103)
Waterford - 2,925 (1,833 FD; 1,705 FD; 1,496; 2,329; 1,550 FD; 314 FD; 460 FD; 470 FD; 478 FD; 453 FD; 466 FD)

FIRST DIVISION

Athlone - 675 (872; 307; 382; 130; 154; 156; 314; 653 PD; 754; 271; 200)
Bray - 656 (663; 482; 773; 643 PD; 966 PD; 957 PD; 769 PD; 718 PD; 891 PD; 965 PD; 1,121 PD)
Cobh - 878 (1,020; 872; 268; 236; 358; 403; 366; 223; 439; 2008 - 1,122 PD; 681)
Cork - 3,380 (3,666 PD; 3,517; 2,505 PD; 4,245 PD; 4,559 PD; 2,533 PD; 3,263 PD; 3,777 PD; 1,965 PD; 2,786 PD; 2,128)
Harps - 1,198 (1,154; 1,293 PD; 1,154 PD; 708; 1,202 PD; 1,216 PD; 784; 449; 479; 429; 433; 644)
Kerry - 665 (784)
Longford - 517 (679; 500; 610; 449; 342; 488 PD; 803 PD; 567; 379; 365; 315)
Treaty - 1,566 (642; 695)
UCD - 316 (809 PD; 953 PD; 739 PD; 365; 236; 297; 216; 397 PD; 487 PD; 506 PD; 558 PD; 610 PD)
Wexford - 595 (689; 445; 235; 181; 338; 585 PD; 553; 331; 227; 302; 216)

PREMIER AVERAGE: 3,613 (3,289; 2,687; 2,185; 2,170; 1,902; 1,476; 1,681; 1,502; 1,566; 1,630; 1,547)
FIRST DIVISION AVERAGE: 992 (1,035; 1,193; 586; 413; 477; 476; 486; 495; 391; 372; 578)

OVERALL AVERAGE: 2,333 (2,162; 2,051; 1,500; 1,249; 1,387; 1,117; 1,249; 1,160; 1,140; 1,125; 1,110)


OVERALL PREMIER ATTENDANCE: 321,564 (592,093; 486,365; 393,238; 316,515; 376,627; 292,204; 332,805; 297,334)
OVERALL FIRST ATTENDANCE: 84,327 (186,369; 178,000; 79,115; 55,756; 53,461; 52,807; 54,474; 55,408)

OVERALL COMBINED ATTENDANCE: 405,891 (778,462; 664,365; 472,353; 372,271; 430,088; 345,011; 387,279; 352,742)

Nearly halfway through, Premier Division figures are good. The 312k total at this stage means we could pass the 600k for the season. Of the 8 clubs that stayed in the division, 6 showing growth the 4 Dublin clubs and Sligo and Drogs, with Dundalk and Derry only ones lower than last season. The Galway and Waterford combined of 6000 is greater than the 4400 combined of Cork and Ucd.
While Drog just about over 2000, the other are comforatbaly above that, and with 4 clubs now above a 4k average.

[LTFC]

First division not as rosy. Only Harps and Treaty grown from last year. That average of 992 likely to fall further so wont hit figures of the 23 or 22.

[bohsmug]

Is this maybe a Dublin stadium thing, to explain their clubs' big increases and the regional clubs' smaller increases?

I wouldn't think so. Pat's and Bohs would sellout regularly. Bohs have been severely hampered by capacity restrictions with more or less every game being a "home" sellout. Pat's fans would know how regularly they sell out but I think it's regular. Shels would've sold out a good bit too and have recently increased capacity with works on an existing structure.

Derry have obviously been hampered by capacity restrictions and I'd leave it up to others to say whether the same is true at other regional clubs as I'm not sure. Tallaght has had a good few sellouts but in general I doubt they'd feel hampered by capacity.

[nigel-harps1954]

Drogheda and Derry have a bit of capacity issues, but both have had majority of their attendances under their current capacities.

Bohs are the only side who seem to be selling out capacity most weeks.

[Shearer]

735 at Treaty United v Longford.