Dublin unrest after stabbing

[Eminence Grise]

Funny how nobody seems to ask how many of males of military age with criminal records sponging off the state are outside the centres protesting...

[pineapple stu]

Yes its working go into any hospital or just about any other business and you'll see evidence of it

I'm always a bit uncomfortable with people justifying immigration on the basis of labour matters. The fact is that taking doctors from developing countries places a big strain on healthcare there. Here's a Guardian article from 2015 noting the strain on the entire of sub-Saharan Africa for example - 77% of Liberian-trained doctors are now working in the US, 75% of Ugandan-trained doctors, and so on. As a direct result of that, there's still large-scale child birth deaths for example. You could find a similar handicap in foreign IT industries I'm sure (I know a big problem in India is that any decent tech company has an almost certainly losing fight to stop key staff moving to jobs in the US, etc)

The west, of course, has always looked to the developing world for what it lacks - spices, metals, now labour. It's a form of systemic racism in my view, though God knows people will deny it to the hilt I'm sure.

And that's before we look at the problems of mass emigration in a climate crisis - the idea that a rapidly-increasing number of people generate an entire year's worth of carbon just by visiting their relatives once a year. Flying is one of the fastest-growing major sources of carbon, and I'd say emigration is the biggest sub-driver of that. Is that really acceptable?

[jbyrne]

And that's before we look at the problems of mass emigration in a climate crisis - the idea that a rapidly-increasing number of people generate an entire year's worth of carbon just by visiting their relatives once a year. Flying is one of the fastest-growing major sources of carbon, and I'd say emigration is the biggest sub-driver of that. Is that really acceptable?

tip of the iceberg though in comparison to first world people and their multiple holiday flights every year

[pineapple stu]

Well, yes and no.

Dublin to Barcelona return (say) is about 700kg of CO2e. Dublin-Lanzarote return is about 1,000kg. Dublin to Bangalore return (changing in Dubai) is about 3 tonnes. Dublin to Sydney return (changing in Singapore) is about 7 tonnes. We need to be getting to 4 tonnes per person per year by the end of the decade, and reducing further after that.

So I don't think it's tip of the iceberg stuff. Yes, first world holidays probably add up to more, but mass emigration is increasing quicker and has the potential to do a lot more damage. 90% of the world don't fly in any given year - so the idea of recruiting people largely from that cohort of people and moving them to where they're now going to be generating huge carbon footprints has to be bad.

Certainly both are bad and we should be trying to reduce them - hence why I'd suggest the sort of emigration we're seeing now has no place in a sustainable society. Among other things of course.

And of course, holidays at least drive tourist economies, whereas modern emigration just drives deeper inequalities. But nobody cares about that, because (in the case of foreign doctors for example) rich lives are worth more than poor lives.

[Nesta99]

There is a cyclical nature to healthcare workers social mobility. Irish go to Oz and people fill the gap from other nations. The majority of Irish return eventually which is not the case for the English for example. Its not all economics driven, young people want to travel and then want to go home. Many return after exeriencing the far away fields are freen thing especially if they went to New Zealand. Whereever staff are coming from they are leaving another system, it has always been that way and it does damage those services. But why be a doctor on a few hundred dollars in subsaharan africa when you can be on thousands of Euro. One way to manage things a bit better is to pay for healthcare training in full but the student signs a contract with the HSE to work for say 5 years or they must buy out the contract, a bursary system. We should look at sending young medic students to train in other systems when our own cant train enough even if that mean african systems - they could deliver courses in English like they do in some Dutch and Polish schools. Healthcare workers are a valuable and finite resource and rightly or wrongly each service provder has a me fein attitude. But we should broaden training in to these places in an offset way. Invaluable experience to treat people without all the whistle and bells equipment at hand in the HSE, clinical diagnostic skills using good old fashioned differential diagnosis rather than pop 'em in a scanner with a form of AI flagging anmolies.

Need to moe entire families of course. We need to drop the overworked and underpaid manatra as many people are sloppy at what they do becsuse their feel disillusioned when they are certainly now overworked and when comparing pay looking at similar sized services and not Dunai or even Oz as a benchmark.

I will tell a story of 3 nurses on one 5 day ward, when on duty, one heads out up the the town of Drogheda to do shopping, pick up kids from school etc. The return and the 2nd nurse hits the town, and finally the third one rund here errands. Every week this happens because they feel over worked and under paid, justifying poor performance. I suggested that they werent overworked if they coul manage everything with 2 nurses to much anger and annoyance. Hospital tried to get staff to rotate to prevent deskilling, working in other disciplines and departmesnt etc to keep things interesting for staff, keep broad skillsets valid etc. But didnt happen as the nurses got their Union involved on claims of changing work practices so the cliques are left alone and continue with subpar perfromance, doing as little possible, losing key skills in use them or lose them. Reject as much as possible training sessions, seen as chores and fear they might be asked to do something extra after training. Even when it comes to introducing early warning score charts in patient files it is not known how to use then as the training has been dodged and this has resulted directly in 2 unnecessary deathssice and many left with life changing injuries,

Its messy but fixible. Just tkes a manager willing to upset a few people and not care and slowly move staff on to hospitals where they will get a serious culture shock where staff actiually do what they are asked. A large number of nurses being roatated to different hospitals would result in dramatically more efficient services for the regional laggards!

[Neish]

Funny how nobody seems to ask how many of males of military age with criminal records sponging off the state are outside the centres protesting...

What I've been say for a long time

[Neish]

I'm always a bit uncomfortable with people justifying immigration on the basis of labour matters. The fact is that taking doctors from developing countries places a big strain on healthcare there. Here's a Guardian article from 2015 noting the strain on the entire of sub-Saharan Africa for example - 77% of Liberian-trained doctors are now working in the US, 75% of Ugandan-trained doctors, and so on. As a direct result of that, there's still large-scale child birth deaths for example. You could find a similar handicap in foreign IT industries I'm sure (I know a big problem in India is that any decent tech company has an almost certainly losing fight to stop key staff moving to jobs in the US, etc)

There is need for foreign labour in our healthcare due to the fact many of our best qualified in helthcare are out foreign earning better maoney

[pineapple stu]

I mean, that didn't really attempt to address the issues of systemic racism and carbon emissions that I raised, so I'm not sure how to answer that other than to, you know, flag the issues of systemic racism and high carbon emissions that you seem to welcome.