LoI in Europe 2024

[sidewayspasser]

But there's no European qualification through the Welsh league cup (same as our league cup winners didn't qualify for Europe). Do they want to change that?

[EatYerGreens]

That's interesting. They used to be able to qualify via the Welsh Cup (rather than the League Cup), but that route was closed off by UEFA I think. What's changed now to have (effectively) the exact same idea on the cards again? Is it as simple as declaring themselves ineligible to reach Europe through the English system?

It was the Welsh FA who stopped Welsh clubs competing in the Welsh FA Cup. That was back in the days when there was beef between everyone as the WFA wanted the exiled clubs to play in its new/relatively new League of Wales. So it did things like scheduled the Welsh FA Cup fixyures on the same day as the English FA Cup fixtures, with both associations having a rule that clubs had to play their main/strongest team. That forced the Welsh clubs to choose between entering one or other of the cups, and they chose the Englsih one. I think there's been a formal rule change since on it all, but that's how the FAW effectively pushed them out of the Welsh Cup back in the day..

What's changed nopw is basically a lot regarding Welsh football. Despite being a bit of a lick-spittle under John Delaney, Noel Mooney has actually turned out to be a fairly good CEO for the Welsh FA. They've done a complete review of the club game and are implementing a number of changes - including increased prize money and expanding their top tier to 16 clubs. This League Cup move is part of that, and seems designed primarily to boost the Welsh coefficient. There's also a mechanism within it whereby money from it will be shared across all clubs.

What is potentially most interesting for me is the impact it has upon the smaller Welsh clubs - Newport and particularly Merthyr, who as a non-league club in Tier 7 in England are not part of this proposal. Newport were the most beligerent against the FAW when cliubs were forced to play outside of Wales by them, so there is still a lot of bad blood between them. But if they continue to just make up the numbers in League 2/National League then they may over time start to consider the benefits of playing in Wales instead (Colwyn Bay made the move a few years ago and it's bene broady positive for them). I suspect Merthyr will feel very left out of all of this as a Welsh club playing in England but not invited to the LC party. It could well give them an added incentive to genuinely consider a shift to the Welsh structure rather than remaining in the lower non-league reaches.

[EatYerGreens]

But there's no European qualification through the Welsh league cup (same as our league cup winners didn't qualify for Europe). Do they want to change that?

There is now.

It's up to each Footbal association how it wants to alocate its Europen places beyond the league and main cup winners.

Will be interetsing to see how all tios pans out in Wales - and for how long it lasts.

[holidaysong]

What is the appeal for a club like Merthyr to play in the lower leagues of England rather than play in the Welsh system?

I assume it is based more on the potential to rise further in England rather than current pros vs cons.

[Buckett]

Wales could have a decent league if all those clubs returned, the FAW would need to really increase prizemoney to entice them. Could raise the standards in other clubs too and raise interest levels throughout Wales

[EalingGreen]

Wales could have a decent league if all those clubs returned

(Barringly possibly Merthyr or Newport?) Cardiff, Swans and Wrexham won't, simple as.

... the FAW would need to really increase prizemoney to entice them. Could raise the standards in other clubs too and raise interest levels throughout Wales

And where are they going to get that prize money from?

And even if they could increase it eg tenfold, it still wouldn't even come close to one season in the Premier League. Swansea had a good run there and Cardiff managed a season fairly recently, while Wrexham probably have aspirations too.

I don't know a huge amount about the Cymru League, but having been to TNS and Carmarthen, I can state with confidence that standards-wise, it is some way below the LOI, or even the IL.And that attracting Merthyr, even Newport, isn't going to change that.

P.S. I think I'm right in saying that the 5 x Welsh clubs who play in the English system still retain the mebership of the FAW, which may assist in any effort to switch from the EFL League Cup to the Welsh League Cup?

[Buckett]

I'm just an ideas guy, I'm not the money guy.

[pineapple stu]

What is the appeal for a club like Merthyr to play in the lower leagues of England rather than play in the Welsh system?

I assume it is based more on the potential to rise further in England rather than current pros vs cons.

I don't really know, but there was nearly civil war when Colwyn Bay moved in 2019. Talk of fans not supporting the club any more and boycotting games. Strange stuff from a club that uses the Welsh language in a lot of its social for example.

They were one of the best-supported sides in Wales last year so they must have gotten over themselves (though still got relegated)

[TonyD]

Wales could have a decent league if all those clubs returned, the FAW would need to really increase prizemoney to entice them. Could raise the standards in other clubs too and raise interest levels throughout Wales

They won’t do it voluntarily, that’s for sure (Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham I mean) but I kind of feel that they should be forced to, if Wales wats to keep its National team. One of those teams would probably be champions every year too, with consequent entry into the Champions league qualifiers. Wouldn’t that be better than hoping for a year in the Premier league sun every few decades ? I know if it was me I’d prefer my team to have a decent chance of winning trophies every year. I get that there’s more money in the English game, but surely those three I mentioned would do okay, and would still get good crowds if they were actually challenging for titles. Then there is the European money, and possibly a decent TV deal.

[EatYerGreens]

I don't really know, but there was nearly civil war when Colwyn Bay moved in 2019. Talk of fans not supporting the club any more and boycotting games. Strange stuff from a club that uses the Welsh language in a lot of its social for example.

They were one of the best-supported sides in Wales last year so they must have gotten over themselves (though still got relegated)

Ahh it really wasn't that bad to be honest. Just a few loudmouths gave off when the decision was made. Crowds went up essentially immediately after the move happened, so it's been a success overall. They'll be back in the top tier soon enough, ad qualifying for Europe in a few years. They were THE best supported team in the Welsh structure last year btw.

[EatYerGreens]

Wales could have a decent league if all those clubs returned, the FAW would need to really increase prizemoney to entice them. Could raise the standards in other clubs too and raise interest levels throughout Wales

It'll never happen (unless the English structure tells them to leave). There's just too much money available for them in the English game.

[EatYerGreens]

What is the appeal for a club like Merthyr to play in the lower leagues of England rather than play in the Welsh system?

I assume it is based more on the potential to rise further in England rather than current pros vs cons.

With Merthyr it appears to be largely just a mixture of belligerence and a view that the Welsh league is unenticing. Which it is - but it's improving fast.

There is still a lot of bad blood over the FA of Wales trying to strong-arm the 'exiled' clubs into joining its new league 30yrs ago.

The problem the Welsh system has is that its largest population centres are represented in Egland. So their crowds aren't great. It's hard to see that changing beyond relatively small increases in support.

Merthyr would prosper in the Welsh system and could have a good rivalry with Penybont/Bridgend, who are top of the CP currently. They'd much rather play weird siuburbs of English towns that you've honestly never heard of instead (including my personal favourite = 'Swindon Supermarine')

[EalingGreen]

They won’t do it voluntarily, that’s for sure (Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham I mean) but I kind of feel that they should be forced to, if Wales wats to keep its National team.

The FAW tried previously to force some of the clubs to join their new League of Wales, but iirc, they were unable to do so when the clubs took it to law. I doubt that the FAW/Cymru League would be in any better position to withstand another such legal challenge now.

While UEFA probably don't much care to get involved in such local disputes unless absolutely necessary, and certainly not at the cost of withdrawing recognition from the Wales NT.

One of those teams would probably be champions every year too, with consequent entry into the Champions league qualifiers. Wouldn’t that be better than hoping for a year in the Premier league sun every few decades ? I know if it was me I’d prefer my team to have a decent chance of winning trophies every year. I get that there’s more money in the English game, but surely those three I mentioned would do okay, and would still get good crowds if they were actually challenging for titles. Then there is the European money, and possibly a decent TV deal.

So one of those teams would be Champions every season - meaning the other two wouldn't. And where's the attraction of finishing second or third in the Cymru League versus that of competing in the Championship, or even League One, never mind the hope of getting to the Prem?
In terms of crowds, money, competitive challenge and history/tradition etc, opting to switch to local Welsh football would be Jules Verne stuff (20,000 leagues under etc).

By contrast, the beauty of this proposal is that it would be "cake and eat it" i.e. retain their English league membership, while hoping for a chance at Europe via the Welsh League Cup.

[Nesta99]

They won’t do it voluntarily, that’s for sure (Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham I mean) but I kind of feel that they should be forced to, if Wales wats to keep its National team. One of those teams would probably be champions every year too, with consequent entry into the Champions league qualifiers. Wouldn’t that be better than hoping for a year in the Premier league sun every few decades ? I know if it was me I’d prefer my team to have a decent chance of winning trophies every year. I get that there’s more money in the English game, but surely those three I mentioned would do okay, and would still get good crowds if they were actually challenging for titles. Then there is the European money, and possibly a decent TV deal.

Sets a precedence for Derry or is the argument to prevent being forced, if it were to ever come to that, giants of Brewick and Tweedmouth too for England, TNS playing in Owestry, Chester straddle the border.. Could entice Merthyr and maybe Newport over time with the European carrot if they never progress in the English system. Bound to be other crossovers that really make it too much a headache to ever bother and without looking at other European clubs that do similar. I remember some confusion when Drogheda played IK Start (Norway) but there was an IF Start from Finland that played in Sweden and for fans to be careful not to mix things up for travel.

[Nesta99]

The FAW tried previously to force some of the clubs to join their new League of Wales, but iirc, they were unable to do so when the clubs took it to law. I doubt that the FAW/Cymru League would be in any better position to withstand another such legal challenge now.

While UEFA probably don't much care to get involved in such local disputes unless absolutely necessary, and certainly not at the cost of withdrawing recognition from the Wales NT.

So one of those teams would be Champions every season - meaning the other two wouldn't. And where's the attraction of finishing second or third in the Cymru League versus that of competing in the Championship, or even League One, never mind the hope of getting to the Prem?
In terms of crowds, money, competitive challenge and history/tradition etc, opting to switch to local Welsh football would be Jules Verne stuff (20,000 leagues under etc).

By contrast, the beauty of this proposal is that it would be "cake and eat it" i.e. retain their English league membership, while hoping for a chance at Europe via the Welsh League Cup.

I think that ruling was based on EU law, be intresting to see if the legals would be different today.

[EalingGreen]

[Colwyn Bay FC] were THE best supported team in the Welsh structure last year btw.

Aye, with an average crowd of 716 (top att. 1,411 on first home of the season, one other four figure crowd - just - and a low of 422):
https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/c...nces/2023-2024

In any case, none of the present grounds could accommodate anything like the numbers that Cardiff/Swans/Wrexham might want to bring. From what I've seen, and what I've been told by someone who knows better than me, many (majority?) of Cymru League grounds are no better than what you would see in the English 7th or 8th tier. If that.

[Stuttgart88]

All the games are on Premier Sport, wherever you can find that.
I'm sure there'll be a dodgy stream somewhere showing it, they are 10 a penny on the internet

I think that's ViaPlay in UK which I have thru my Virgin Media package but my listings for Thursday just show a blank right now.

Edit: can't find anywhere in UK to watch it.

[EalingGreen]

I think that ruling was based on EU law, be intresting to see if the legals would be different today.

UEFA frequently come up against EU law limiting what they can/cannot do, with the European Super League being just the latest.

There is NO WAY they'll risk another battle for the sake of something so piddling as this, trust me.

[EatYerGreens]

UEFA frequently come up against EU law limiting what they can/cannot do, with the European Super League being just the latest.

There is NO WAY they'll risk another battle for the sake of something so piddling as this, trust me.

It wasn't UEFA who the legal action was taken against poreviously though, It was the Welsh FA. UEFA had no involvement (and from memory refused to get involved).

[outspoken]

From a LOI perspective this would be bad news. Any LOI team v a Welsh club would be generally seen as a penalty kick in Europe but that goes out the window if the big Welsh clubs start entering