Next Senior Men's Team Manager - Runners and Riders

[LurcherLover]

But why was he "extremely highly thought of at Brentford"? Expand on that. How do you think he'll set us up to play if appointed

He's supposed to be a very good cook.

[EalingGreen]

But why was he "extremely highly thought of at Brentford"? Expand on that. How do you think he'll set us up to play if appointed?

Good at working with players, youth as well as experienced, tactically aware, young(ish) and progressive, likes attacking football etc - you know, management stuff.

Expect that lad Carsley replaced ...

When Benham took over, his first managerial appointment was Uwe Rosler. He introduced a whole new level of professionalism to the club, even if his playing style was very defensive. Left for a bigger/better job.
Next was Mark Warburton - a "left-field" choice, in that although he had coaching badges, he had no great football background, having been a City trader and p-t youth coach at Watford before becoming Director of Football at BFC. He got them promotion from Lge One (and v.nearly from the Championship), with a much more attacking brand of football. Left because he demanded to be a Manager (e.g. full control over transfers etc), rather than the Head Coach position the club was transitioning to.
Dijkhuizen, whom you refer to, was promoted from within at the very start of the following summer, but even by the first league game in August, the club had doubts about their decision, and instead of, say, giving him until Christmas to see how it was going, they cut their losses after 9 games and binned him. Almost uniquely amongst owners, Benham held his hands up and admitted he (MB) had got it wrong. Dijkhuizen has since done sod-all in management.
Carsley was to be their next choice, but when he declined, they apppointed Dean Smith from Walsall. Smith embedded the Head Coach set-up and consolidated their position in the Championship, even while having a small budget and having to sell players. Left for his dream job at boyhood club, Villa.
Finally they replaced him with Dane Thomas Frank, from their coaching staff. He had never played football, having got into youth football as a PE teacher, eventually with the NT, before his first club job, where he left when he found out he was being undermined by his Chairman, who was posting against him under an assumed name on a fans forum! TF is now the 3rd longest PL manager after Guardiola and Klopp, and is doing an outstanding job.

The point being that each one of those choices was very different, yet four of the five took the club to the next level i.e. an 80% success rate, with the fifth being ditched before he could do any harm. Which record of appointments has to be right up there with the very best clubs in England. Meaning that if they are giving Carsley a good reference, I personally would trust their judgement.

[ifk101]

Good at working with players, youth as well as experienced, tactically aware, young(ish) and progressive, likes attacking football etc - you know, management stuff.

A ringing endorsement. And I hear he is a very good cook. I think I'm just looking for something more tangible to support his ability to get more out of a less talented group of (specifically senior) players.

When Benham took over ...

Brentford level completed.

[LurcherLover]

They only 'tangible" thing you're ever going to get regarding his ability is going to be reported or hearsay unless you know him personally or work(ed) with him. There's a lot of 'talk' about Carsley from his peers & higher, concerning his coaching ability. He's obviously a very respected and capable coach, whether he can succeed at senior level is something to be seen but all the evidence points towards him doing so.

[EalingGreen]

A ringing endorsement. And I hear he is a very good cook. I think I'm just looking for something more tangible to support his ability to get more out of a less talented group of (specifically senior) players.

Knock yourself out:
https://totalfootballanalysis.com/ta...tical-analysis
https://trainingground.guru/articles...-not-positions
https://www.evertonfc.com/news/25498...ds-to-get-here
https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/jole...verton-wolves/

Brentford level completed.

No idea what that means.

[Razors left peg]

A ringing endorsement. And I hear he is a very good cook. I think I'm just looking for something more tangible to support his ability to get more out of a less talented group of (specifically senior) players.



Brentford level completed.

From a tangible point of view I suppose you could point to the Euros he won with their u21s. I know they have good players, but they always do and I think thats the 1st time they've won it? Its at least been quite a while.

U21s is technically youth football, but at that level they are professional players, and the egos that come with that. Its a bit different to u17s and u19s. So I dont worry about him never coaching senior players. The bulk of our teams are about 24 and under so for me its a massive plus that he is good with young players.

[LurcherLover]

The England U21s is full of players who are regulars in the PL. The team that won the Euros would play our senior team off the park week in week out.

[ifk101]

From a tangible point of view I suppose you could point to the Euros he won with their u21s. I know they have good players, but they always do and I think thats the 1st time they've won it? Its at least been quite a while.

U21s is technically youth football, but at that level they are professional players, and the egos that come with that. Its a bit different to u17s and u19s. So I dont worry about him never coaching senior players. The bulk of our teams are about 24 and under so for me its a massive plus that he is good with young players.

I haven’t seen enough of the English U21s but thought Spain had them pinned back in the final and they struggle to break Spain’s high press. They beat a relatively weak Israel in the semis but looking at the match stats against Portugal in the quarter finals, it would seem they also struggled against a team that put them on the back foot. That’s a worry for me because it says there was difficult in overcoming an opposition that can match England and/ or play a high press and possession game. If Carsley becomes manager, he is going to be facing stronger opposition than us in the qualifiers and going to be in games where we have less of the ball/ are on the back foot. And if he couldn’t figure a way to play out against Spain with the players England have, will he be able to do that with us – especially with our weakness in midfield? I think we could fall back into a situation with Carsley where the players aren’t good enough line comes out, and focus is structure, defending deep and hoping to nick something on a set play. Don’t get me wrong – if the choice is Carsley, Hughton or Allardyce – I’d pick Carsley. But my preference of the names mentioned most recently would be Barry as there is evidence (the tangible) he can make the players we have better.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Brentford level completed.

With all due respect to Brentford - they are a small club (they have spent most of their existence in the lower reaches of the Football League) - the fact that they have managed to get into the PL and stay there is quite remarkable.

[Jolly Red Giant]

The England U21s is full of players who are regulars in the PL. The team that won the Euros would play our senior team off the park week in week out.

Not completely true - they have some good players but the team that won the U21 final only had one regular PL player (Gordon) - now several others are breaking into their first teams this season - but it is a major stretch to suggest that they would play us off the park (unless Kenny was still head coach). But it also should be remembered that there were a lot of other very good teams in that competition - the Spanish team that they beat in the final did have several players who were regulars in La Liga (and in the PL in Portugal) in 22-23.

[Razors left peg]

I haven’t seen enough of the English U21s but thought Spain had them pinned back in the final and they struggle to break Spain’s high press. They beat a relatively weak Israel in the semis but looking at the match stats against Portugal in the quarter finals, it would seem they also struggled against a team that put them on the back foot. That’s a worry for me because it says there was difficult in overcoming an opposition that can match England and/ or play a high press and possession game. If Carsley becomes manager, he is going to be facing stronger opposition than us in the qualifiers and going to be in games where we have less of the ball/ are on the back foot. And if he couldn’t figure a way to play out against Spain with the players England have, will he be able to do that with us – especially with our weakness in midfield? I think we could fall back into a situation with Carsley where the players aren’t good enough line comes out, and focus is structure, defending deep and hoping to nick something on a set play. Don’t get me wrong – if the choice is Carsley, Hughton or Allardyce – I’d pick Carsley. But my preference of the names mentioned most recently would be Barry as there is evidence (the tangible) he can make the players we have better.

Stats are grand, but he beat Spain and Portugal and actually won the tournament. Our passing and possession stats were way up under Kenny but he lost alot.

[SkStu]

Don’t get me wrong – if the choice is Carsley, Hughton or Allardyce – I’d pick Carsley. But my preference of the names mentioned most recently would be Barry as there is evidence (the tangible) he can make the players we have better.

Barry for sure. I'd like to put John Eustace's name in there too. And I'd probably have Hughton ahead of Carsley. I wouldnt be upset at all though if Carsley got the gig. They'd all be a fairly safe gamble for improvement.

[elatedscum]

Not completely true - they have some good players but the team that won the U21 final only had one regular PL player (Gordon) - now several others are breaking into their first teams this season -

not really true at all...




Trafford - a loan season at league 1, now a prem player
Griifiths - first half of the season at league 1, second half playing championship
Rushworth - a loan season at league 1, now a championship loan


Aarons - previous season was in the champ but had played 70 PL games and is back there now
Johnson - had played 55 PL games and won west ham’s young player of the year two years in a row


Colwill - starter for Brighton last season, now a starter for Chelsea
Harwood-Bellis - a series of championship loans, promoted with Burnley before the 21s tournament
Branthwaite - now a premier league regular, was on loan at PSV that season
Cresswell - on loan in the champ.


Thomas - had played 17 PL games that season and 56 in total, got relegated and is now in champ


Skipp - 79 games for Spurs under his belt at the time of the tournament
Doyle - on loan with promoted Sheffield United last season, on loan at Wolves this season
Ramsey - played 35 of 38 PL games in the season before the tournament. Has played 93 PL games
Garner - 16 PL games in the season but he missed November - April due to injury and then played all the last 10 games of the season. Now a regular.


Gibbs white - played 37 of 38 prem games in the season before the tournament. Has played 96 PL games
Smith Rowe - has played over 100 games for Arsenal, full England international
Jones - has played over 100 games for Liverpool
Palmer - Chelsea paid £40+m for him straight after the tournament - played 41 games for city before the move


Gordon - 81 prem games at the time of tournament
Elliott - played 46 games for Liverpool in the season before the tournament, has 56 premier league appearances under his belt but would be more if the horror injury hadn’t happened
Gomes - a regular for one of the better ligue 1 teams
Madueke - first half of the season with PSV before Chelsea bought him for €33m. Played a bit for Chelsea in the rest of the season


Archer - scored 11 in 20 last season for Boro in the championship. Now a first choice PL player.

[elatedscum]

if you were picking a combined team, we could realistically have starters in goal (bit of a toss up between Trafford, Bazunu and Kelleher), at right back (toss up between Doherty, Coleman, Aarons and Johnson), centre back (it's probably Colwill and Branthwait but Collins is in the mix for the second slot) and Evan Ferguson starts up top. So they have 7 definite, we have 1 and then 3 50/50s

[EalingGreen]

With all due respect to Brentford - they are a small club (they have spent most of their existence in the lower reaches of the Football League) - the fact that they have managed to get into the PL and stay there is quite remarkable.

And all while keeping strictly within FFP, when their final Championship (pre-Covid) annual turnover was £15m (i.e. continuously sold their best players for a profit and replaced them with better).

Not for them blowing FFP out of the water to "buy" promotion like, eg Villa.

And since being in the PL, they've made a profit, meaning they've had nothing to fear from Profit and Sustainability Rules.

What was that?

"Everton"?

[LurcherLover]

Not completely true - they have some good players but the team that won the U21 final only had one regular PL player (Gordon) - now several others are breaking into their first teams this season - but it is a major stretch to suggest that they would play us off the park (unless Kenny was still head coach). But it also should be remembered that there were a lot of other very good teams in that competition - the Spanish team that they beat in the final did have several players who were regulars in La Liga (and in the PL in Portugal) in 22-23.

No, it is true. Plus, I'm talking about the current squad and how they've played. We made NZ look like a top team and there's no guarantee that a new coach will come in miraculously change things. Kenny was out of his depth, but the players have been lucky he was so bad, as he has masked how utterly terrible they have performed. I don't care how bad you're set up, it's no excuse for how bad they've been in the majority of games. The majority of that team have gotten off lightly and some people will tell you that we have some sort of golden generation of young players that just need the correct manager to unlock their potential. We're very poor.

[seanfhear]

Any manager does well to win a Trophy with England at any level because, they so often manage to blow good situations to win tournaments, despite all of the advantages that England have !

[Stuttgart88]

not really true at all...




Trafford - a loan season at league 1, now a prem player
Griifiths - first half of the season at league 1, second half playing championship
Rushworth - a loan season at league 1, now a championship loan


Aarons - previous season was in the champ but had played 70 PL games and is back there now
Johnson - had played 55 PL games and won west ham’s young player of the year two years in a row


Colwill - starter for Brighton last season, now a starter for Chelsea
Harwood-Bellis - a series of championship loans, promoted with Burnley before the 21s tournament
Branthwaite - now a premier league regular, was on loan at PSV that season
Cresswell - on loan in the champ.


Thomas - had played 17 PL games that season and 56 in total, got relegated and is now in champ


Skipp - 79 games for Spurs under his belt at the time of the tournament
Doyle - on loan with promoted Sheffield United last season, on loan at Wolves this season
Ramsey - played 35 of 38 PL games in the season before the tournament. Has played 93 PL games
Garner - 16 PL games in the season but he missed November - April due to injury and then played all the last 10 games of the season. Now a regular.


Gibbs white - played 37 of 38 prem games in the season before the tournament. Has played 96 PL games
Smith Rowe - has played over 100 games for Arsenal, full England international
Jones - has played over 100 games for Liverpool
Palmer - Chelsea paid £40+m for him straight after the tournament - played 41 games for city before the move


Gordon - 81 prem games at the time of tournament
Elliott - played 46 games for Liverpool in the season before the tournament, has 56 premier league appearances under his belt but would be more if the horror injury hadn’t happened
Gomes - a regular for one of the better ligue 1 teams
Madueke - first half of the season with PSV before Chelsea bought him for €33m. Played a bit for Chelsea in the rest of the season


Archer - scored 11 in 20 last season for Boro in the championship. Now a first choice PL player.

Imagine we had that as our senior team...

[ifk101]

No idea what that means.

It means you could write the Wikipedia page for Brentford FC. Your knowledge knows no bounds. Your admiration is clear. Brentford FC – completed it mate.

(If Thomas Frank is looking for a new challenge, or Brentford want to take over the running of the FAI, send them our way. I’m sold.)

Stats are grand, but he beat Spain and Portugal and actually won the tournament. Our passing and possession stats were way up under Kenny but he lost alot.

He did indeed win the tournament – an achievement. But can he make our (less talented) collection of individuals a better whole is the question? And it not about passing the ball around, or playing a particular style. Rather, can he maximise the resources available to him to help us punch above our weight?

England are individually superior in most games they play so greater emphasis should be given to the games where England were matched to determine Carsley’s suitability to do the job for us. Because we, more often than not, are likely to be matched/ or bettered in the individual quality level of opposition we will face – and hence the reference to England’s performances against Spain and Portugal in the U21 Championship. England were out maneuvered in those games with Carsley admitting as such in the aftermath of the Portugal game

"We have to give Portugal a lot of credit," Carsley said. "They pressed us really well, they were aggressive with their positioning. "We couldn't control it. It wasn't as if we were on battery save mode, Portugal were good.

Moving on, it's best to learn from Kenny's time and not land in a situation again where an opposing manager can ridicule our tactical ineptitude. I’m not saying that will happen with Carsley, again prefer him to other named candidates, just expressing reason for doubt.

[EalingGreen]

It means you could write the Wikipedia page for Brentford FC. Your knowledge knows no bounds. Your admiration is clear. Brentford FC – completed it mate.

Although I am a lifelong Spurs fan, I've lived virtually within walking distance of Brentford for decades (check out a map of London for Ealing/Brentford), have watched them for years with my Bees mates, including when they were in Lges One & Two, and currently have a Season Ticket* at the GTech.

Which is why I don't need Wikipedia to comment on Brentford on matters like this - see eg my previous posts on Nathan Collins or Scott Hogan. In the same way as I feel qualified to comment on Spurs-related matters eg Troy Parrott or Matt Doherty threads.

And which is also why I would prefer if you confined your comments to the matters under discussion, rather than trying to personalise them with sarcastic digs at me, esp when you clearly know bugger-all about me.

On which point, have you anything to say about Carsley's coaching style and qualifications? You know, where you asked about this in post #523, and I replied in #525.


* - Check out the fixture lists - for policing reasons, Brentford and Spurs generally play their home games week-about, so no fixture clash.