Next Senior Men's Team Manager - Runners and Riders

[SkStu]

When you use “they”, I can’t help but feel you are referring to posters here, including myself? As individuals who are trying to justify racism? I hope not.

Maybe I’m naive but I happen to think that very few people are actually racist but that a lot of people say very stupid things. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt and let the punishment fit the crime.

But maybe I’m wrong and Willy is just a mad racist.

[Razors left peg]

Lads this is very simple. I know this is a forum for debate but this is not a debatable subject.

"The advantage of an African player is that he's cheap when you get him and ready to fight, but football isn't just about that. It's also about technique, intelligence, and discipline. You need to have it all."

That's a abhorrent statement no matter what way you try spin it, especially when he adds the Nordic part to make sure we knew what he meant. How do you think Bazunu, Idah, Obafemi, Ogbene, Ebosele or any young Irish lad of African descent would feel knowing their manager made that statement.

It's wrong and anyone defending it is simply wrong

[SkStu]

Just to be clear, I’ve used “clearly wrong” and “brutal” to describe his comments.

[Razors left peg]

Just to be clear, I’ve used “clearly wrong” and “brutal” to describe his comments.

And that's all that needs to be said here Stu, there's no different shades of grey. This is not a man we want in charge of our players.

I actually didn't know about these comments before today, or maybe I did and forgot, but either way he can fcuk off

[Olé Olé]

I understand that the apologized and offered context but the comments in the first place clearly came a bit too naturally to him given how truly stereotypical they were. I'm sure there is a broad spectrum of racism that the views of some white Frenchman of his age might align to but the fact that he made it onto that spectrum at all is concerning. Graeme Sounness has been called out for referring to the physical or broader non cognitive traits of specific black players in his punditry career. Commenting on a specific player is bad but the sweeping nature of Sagnol's comments is a little more informative about him in my view.

[pineapple stu]

No, I didnt ignore your post, I dismissed your post as the bullsh1t it is. Any supposed stereotype of African players has come from racism.

You dismissed it, sure, but you didn't make any argument. That hardly counts.

Maybe such stereotyped scouting of African footballers does come from racism. Does it make Sagnol racist for complaining about the results of that kind of scouting?

I'm also not making the argument that scouts today have a typical African player in mind. The comments were ten years ago and were based on scouting maybe 20 years ago. That's a long time in football. There's probably a similar reason why Brazilian players tend towards the technical exciting attacking player and away from the rugged centre-half type. Is that racist too? Brazil is a huge place remember.

Okacha and Weah were great players. They were also only two players. There's others of course too but I don't think it's a big enough data sample to base a case on. Similarly the fact we produced Wes Hoolahan doesn't negate the fact there's more than a kernel of truth in the stereotypical player we produce.

[John83]

... the fact we produced Wes Hoolahan doesn't negate the fact there's more than a kernel of truth in the stereotypical player we produce.

I'm not sure I want to get into this discussion at all - at best, the comments by Sagnol were very clumsy, and I had quite enough of Kenny fumbling through press conferences - but I think this is an important point. Stereotypes about Irish players are really about our historical coaching and youth development infrastructure, not our ethnicity or genetic predispositions. That's entirely consistent with the reported explanation Sagnol later gave. I don't much like judging people on one comment they made and didn't double down on. It's just not a very reliable way to judge someone's character.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Similarly the fact we produced Wes Hoolahan doesn't negate the fact there's more than a kernel of truth in the stereotypical player we produce.

Oh - bloody bullsh*t

Wes Hoolahan is the only skillful player Ireland ever produced ? - Really ?

We have produced some of the world's most skillful players on this island

Off the top of my head -

Johnny Giles
Liam Brady
George Best
Steve Heighway
Danny Blanchflower
Charlie Hurley
Johnny Carey
Pat Jennings
Shay Brennan
Noel Cantwell
Denis Irwin
Con Martin
Ronnie Whelan
Paul McGrath
Kevin Sheedy
Billy Whelan
Bill Lacey

Stop talking nonsense

[Stuttgart88]

Ffs lads let's not equate the Irish stereotype of hard working players and say it's similar to Africa. Firstly there are 54 individual countries in Africa so don't lump them all in as one, and more importantly as a continent Africa has produced some of the best players the world has ever seen. Anyone that says there is a stereotypical African player is a fcuking racist plain and simple

Particularly coming from a player who had significant career success with players of African descent too.

[Stuttgart88]

I’m sure you’ve all googled it by now like I have. He apologized for his comments so they were obviously wrong.

The apology itself was a bit ham-fisted but he gave additional context to his words - in particular that his reference to intelligence was meant in a footballing sense rather than a racial or ethnic sense. His argument being that the youth coaching infrastructure there is not to par with what you’d get elsewhere (he used the Scandinavian system as a comparator) therefore the younger African players need that type of development when they’re signed. His opinion has a certain logic to it that I don’t think is racist. But how he said it originally was brutal and he rightly got called out on it.

But of all the places (again making a regional generalisation too) why cite Scandinavia? Are they more renowned for their footballing intelligence or their Aryan whiteness? Because if I was to make a footballing generalisation I'd pick southern European, CEE or LatAm players for their footballing intelligence over the Scandies all day long.

[Jolly Red Giant]

at best, the comments by Sagnol were very clumsy,

Sagnol's comments were a conscious act - racists just can't help themselves. No matter how much they try to contain their poisonous views, racists inevitably let it spill out into the open.

Stereotypes about Irish players are really about our historical coaching and youth development infrastructure, not our ethnicity or genetic predispositions.

Nonsense - stereotypes about Irish players are rooted in the imperialist outlook of the hierarchy of the English FA and the British media.

That's entirely consistent with the reported explanation Sagnol later gave.

Sagnol's 'clarification' was a clumsy attempt 1. to justify the comments, - and 2. to save his f*cking job (and, like with Bolton and Lennon, rather than sack Sagnol, the club did it in a completely ham-fisted way that compounded the racist slurs uttered by Sagnol).

I don't much like judging people on one comment they made and didn't double down on. It's just not a very reliable way to judge someone's character.

In 2017 Sagnol was the favourite to get the job as Ghana manager - when it became public knowledge that he was in for the job Sagnol had an opportunity to address his comments, make a proper apology and commit to supporting anti-racism campaigns (something which you would do if you were opposed to racism and made a clumsy comment) - yet Sagnol would not utter a single word, didn't offer a single apology or justification - he attempted to tough it out. It was only after a huge outcry in Ghana that the Ghanaian FA dropped Sagnol like a hot potato and claimed that he was never in the frame for the job.

The guy is a racist - and, like Lennon, shouldn't be anywhere close to being considered by the FAI.

[Eirambler]

Doesn't seem like we're any further forward in finding out the identity of the new man after the weekend game. Dan McDonnell this morning not ruling out the prospect that Canham may have lost out on the replacement previously identified - but that would make Canham's own position somewhat questionable if he can't deliver on what he promised at the press conference a few weeks ago.

[seanfhear]

Probably, El Amigo John O'Shea !

[weldoninhio]

The whole racism everywhere is tiresome. Screeching and wailing to get offended on behalf of other people to show how righteous they are. Sagnol explained himself. I can't see any issue with him becoming Ireland manager. I think it'll be Poyet though.

[sbgawa]

The whole racism everywhere is tiresome. Screeching and wailing to get offended on behalf of other people to show how righteous they are. Sagnol explained himself. I can't see any issue with him becoming Ireland manager. I think it'll be Poyet though.

I agree with this view,
How anyone can bring the debate down to "he is a Racist" with 100% certainty based on comments that a)African players are cheaper then euro players (they were) b) are they less intelligent in a footballing sense then scandinavian players who benefit from far greater levels of coaching (probably yes) are starting from a position that they are looking for offence
Ive no idea if the guy is a racist or not but ive no basis for deciding it based on the above

[Murfinator]

The comments were 10 years ago, apologised for and not dissimilar from the kind of lazy stereotypes heard on RTE panels every world cup and throughout sports media at the time about African teams.

Sagnol's chosen captain at the time was Senegal player Lamine Sane who accepted the apology, viewed his words as "clumsy" rather than having racial intent and defended his character.

Sagnol's captain at Bordeaux is Senegal international Lamine Sane, who called Sagnol's comments "clumsy" before defending him, as did club president Jean-Louis Triaud."He doesn't have any twisted ideas. He believes in all the black players in the team," Sane told French radio. "We believe in him and we hope to go very far with him."
Bordeaux forward Henri Saivet, who is black, told RMC radio that Sagnol apologized.
"We all know pertinently well that the coach is not a racist," Saivet said.

If the apology was accepted as genuine by the African players he was working with on a daily basis at the time then I'm not sure why Irish people a decade later should believe otherwise.

[Razors left peg]

I must say it's disappointing to come in here this morning and see how many are still willing to defend Sagnol. Do better lads

[SkStu]

I must say it's disappointing to come in here this morning and see how many are still willing to defend Sagnol. Do better lads

But Razor, there is clearly a lot more context to his comments that were added subsequently. I suppose whether you choose to believe him or not is down to you. As a few have said (and all, I think, in the context of his initial comments being bad), it gives a reason to pause and think about whether he is racist and whether that is reasonable as a categorical statement - which i personally happen to think is more constructive in the current climate than doubling down and calling on others to do better. Should Mane and Saivet have done better?

[LurcherLover]

His own players from African descent and players who played alongside him from African descent dismissed it as being racist, accepted his apology and it was just him being clumsy with his words, but Foot.ie(who have just learned of this) knows better, doesn't accept this and has declared he is 100% racist. You couldn't make it up. Do better lads.

[MylesNotMiley]

The comments were 10 years ago, apologised for and not dissimilar from the kind of lazy stereotypes heard on RTE panels every world cup and throughout sports media at the time about African teams.

Sagnol's chosen captain at the time was Senegal player Lamine Sane who accepted the apology, viewed his words as "clumsy" rather than having racial intent and defended his character.



If the apology was accepted as genuine by the African players he was working with on a daily basis at the time then I'm not sure why Irish people a decade later should believe otherwise.

If Lamine Sane & Henri Saivet have accepted Sagnol's apology and moved on and Saivet himself stating "we all know pertinently well that the coach is not a racist" - I'm happy to follow their lead.

Sane & Saivet know more about Sagnol's character than a few posters on this forum.