Next Senior Men's Team Manager - Runners and Riders

[pineapple stu]

I understood that post as meaning thats the only demographic type country he could get employment in.

Possibly so, yeah (JRG's intention rather than the actual argument).

The argument itself seems a bit like filling a vacuum with no real basis though. (Why didn't he have any jobs in the meantime? It must be because he's really racist! But is he the first manager ever with a CV gap?) I'm uncomfortable with that sort of stuff. I'll echo The Fly's excellent post in that regard.

Tbh, I'm also uncomfortable with JRG's comments on Nkencho though - I think they tell a lot about the poster, so I'm happy to back away from any further discussion there. I'm not sure JRG's anger/attitude in all this is helpful.

Is Moyes a realistic option? Probably get better offers with better pay, but might just be tempted by a less stressful spell as an international manager?

Moyes maybe more likely to take the Scotland job if Clarke feels he's taken it as far as he can?

Think he's contracted for the next campaign though, so that mayn't be an option for him. Think it'd be a stretch for us to appoint him though

[tetsujin1979]

I feel like we're on a slippery slope discussing whether or not someone is racist, and what is/isn't racist.
Can we move on from the Sagnol discussion, unless he's conclusively linked with the job again

[Diggs246]

I have to say I feel very sorry for Scotland, its a clear peno and VAR did nothing

They should be in the last 16 and now they are going home

I don't believe for a second that if thats was Germany or Spain that VAR would react in the same manner

[seanfhear]

I have to say I feel very sorry for Scotland, its a clear peno and VAR did nothing

They should be in the last 16 and now they are going home

I don't believe for a second that if thats was Germany or Spain that VAR would react in the same manner

Definite penalty ~ ~ How can the ' best " referees with Var not give that ? !

Is it still, Brits Out, with UEFA ? !

[NeverFeltBetter]

I thought Armstrong was offside when the ball was played to him, but it doesn't seem like the TV replays wanted to clear that up. Regardless, it doesn't seem like VAR checked for anything.

[Diggs246]

Definite penalty ~ ~ How can the ' best " referees with Var not give that ? !

Is it still, Brits Out, with UEFA ? !

Even the linesman. What's his thought process?

[EalingGreen]

Is Moyes a realistic option? Probably get better offers with better pay, but might just be tempted by a less stressful spell as an international manager?

If he should fancy international football, then surely Scotland would be much more likely?

And let's face it, Clarke must be on very shaky ground right now, so we could see a vacancy soon enough.

[JR89]

Is Moyes a realistic option? Probably get better offers with better pay, but might just be tempted by a less stressful spell as an international manager?

Not even in our dreams would Moyes be a realistic option. Doubt we'd even get someone like Clarke if Scotland sacked him this summer.

[Stuttgart88]

Is it still, Brits Out, with UEFA ? !

I hope so.

[Jolly Red Giant]

It is interesting that Moyes is being suggested here - but a coach who is available and would probably want the job has been dismissed from the FAI's radar - Chris Hughton.

Let's look at their coaching record -

David Moyes - 61 years old and has coached 6 teams over 7 occasions over a 26 year period.
Chris Hughton - 65 years old - coached 5 club teams and one international team (and was caretaker on two occasions with a sixth club - Spurs) over 16 years.

- Moyes spent 4 years at Preston taking them from what is now League One to the Championship - he walked out on Preston in 2002 to take over Everton.
- Moyes spent 10 years at Everton - with the first few years up and down - flirting with relegation in between putting some good campaigns together. While at the club Moyes was facilitated with significant amounts of money to build his squad. His last couple of years were relatively successful and that led him to getting the job at Man Utd after Ferguson retired.
- His year at MU was a disaster - and some would argue that it was always going to be. Irrespective of that - Moyes proved pretty much incompetent when it came to managing the club. He was sacked after one season.
- In 2014 he was appointed manager of Real Sociedad - again poor job and he was sacked a day less than a year in charge.
- Next stop was Sunderland in the PL - Moyes succeeded in getting them relegated and was gone after one season.
- He then did a six month stint at West Ham where he succeeded in preventing relegation.
- Last job - Appointed manager of West Ham on New Year's Eve 2019. His four and a half seasons at West Ham were successful - including winning the Euro Conference League in 2023.

Overall - for Moyes - one hit with West Ham - one up and down with Everton that ended on an up and three disasters in between.

Chris Hughton
- Got Newcastle promoted to PL in 2010 and had them competing in the PL (with mostly free agents and loan signings) when Ashley sacked him so he could give his gambling buddy a job.
- After being linked with WBA, West Ham and Cardiff - took over at Birmingham. In his one season there, without any money, Hughton got Birmingham (a Championship club) to the group stages of the Europa League and the Championship play-offs
- Norwich approached Birmingham to talk to Hughton - in his first season Norwich finished 11th (again with little money to spend). In his second season Norwich were 5 points above relegation with five games to go - the Norwich board panicked, sacked Hughton, got one point from the last five games and were relegated.
- New years eve 2014 Hughton took over at Brighton with them in the relegation zone in the Championship. In his first full season Brighton finished 3rd, losing just five times and missing automatic promotion by 2 goals (difference) - Brighton lost in the play-offs. His second season Brighton won automatic promotion. Subsequently, with relatively little money to spend and a bottom three budget, Hughton kept Brighton in the PL for two seasons and laid the groundwork for their subsequent progress in the PL. He was sacked (unfairly in my view) after 4 1/2 years.
- In October 2020 Hughton took over at Forest with the club bottom of the Championship, having lost all their games. He kept the club up in his first season. The start of the following season was a disaster (mainly because of a large number of injuries and because the club wouldn't get the players Hughton wanted) and he was sacked in September.
- In Feb 2022 Hughton became Technical Director of the Ghana team, taking over as manager a year later. Hughton qualified Ghana for the AFCON and was sacked after Ghana didn't progress from the group stages (technically he wasn't sacked - his contract ended with elimination from AFCON).

Overall for Hughton - a hit with Newcastle - did well at Birmingham and Brighton - reasonably well at Norwich - pretty bad at Forest and not so good with Ghana either.

Now I think Moyes is a good manager - although I don't like his personality (he has been penalised for foul and abusive language towards match officials on several occasions - and suggested to a female reporter that she deserved a slap for the questions she was asking). He has been in the game for a long time and has managed to hang around in the upper reaches of club football. However, he was reputed to be on £5m a year at West Ham and likely will be offered something similar in the near future.

I also think Hughton is a good manager - and the guy is a gentleman who is respected throughout the game. Money has never been a motivating factor for Hughton and he was the lowest played manager in the PL when at Brighton. He is also very loyal to his employers (even when they didn't reciprocate) - and has always operated on a team first basis. He also has experience as manager of an international team. One other thing that Hughton has not had in his managerial career is a group of talented young players - particularly a player like Ferguson - and I, for one, would love to see what he could do with them.

[third policeman]

It is interesting that Moyes is being suggested here - but a coach who is available and would probably want the job has been dismissed from the FAI's radar - Chris Hughton.

Let's look at their coaching record -

David Moyes - 61 years old and has coached 6 teams over 7 occasions over a 26 year period.
Chris Hughton - 65 years old - coached 5 club teams and one international team (and was caretaker on two occasions with a sixth club - Spurs) over 16 years.

- Moyes spent 4 years at Preston taking them from what is now League One to the Championship - he walked out on Preston in 2002 to take over Everton.
- Moyes spent 10 years at Everton - with the first few years up and down - flirting with relegation in between putting some good campaigns together. While at the club Moyes was facilitated with significant amounts of money to build his squad. His last couple of years were relatively successful and that led him to getting the job at Man Utd after Ferguson retired.
- His year at MU was a disaster - and some would argue that it was always going to be. Irrespective of that - Moyes proved pretty much incompetent when it came to managing the club. He was sacked after one season.
- In 2014 he was appointed manager of Real Sociedad - again poor job and he was sacked a day less than a year in charge.
- Next stop was Sunderland in the PL - Moyes succeeded in getting them relegated and was gone after one season.
- He then did a six month stint at West Ham where he succeeded in preventing relegation.
- Last job - Appointed manager of West Ham on New Year's Eve 2019. His four and a half seasons at West Ham were successful - including winning the Euro Conference League in 2023.

Overall - for Moyes - one hit with West Ham - one up and down with Everton that ended on an up and three disasters in between.

Chris Hughton
- Got Newcastle promoted to PL in 2010 and had them competing in the PL (with mostly free agents and loan signings) when Ashley sacked him so he could give his gambling buddy a job.
- After being linked with WBA, West Ham and Cardiff - took over at Birmingham. In his one season there, without any money, Hughton got Birmingham (a Championship club) to the group stages of the Europa League and the Championship play-offs
- Norwich approached Birmingham to talk to Hughton - in his first season Norwich finished 11th (again with little money to spend). In his second season Norwich were 5 points above relegation with five games to go - the Norwich board panicked, sacked Hughton, got one point from the last five games and were relegated.
- New years eve 2014 Hughton took over at Brighton with them in the relegation zone in the Championship. In his first full season Brighton finished 3rd, losing just five times and missing automatic promotion by 2 goals (difference) - Brighton lost in the play-offs. His second season Brighton won automatic promotion. Subsequently, with relatively little money to spend and a bottom three budget, Hughton kept Brighton in the PL for two seasons and laid the groundwork for their subsequent progress in the PL. He was sacked (unfairly in my view) after 4 1/2 years.
- In October 2020 Hughton took over at Forest with the club bottom of the Championship, having lost all their games. He kept the club up in his first season. The start of the following season was a disaster (mainly because of a large number of injuries and because the club wouldn't get the players Hughton wanted) and he was sacked in September.
- In Feb 2022 Hughton became Technical Director of the Ghana team, taking over as manager a year later. Hughton qualified Ghana for the AFCON and was sacked after Ghana didn't progress from the group stages (technically he wasn't sacked - his contract ended with elimination from AFCON).

Overall for Hughton - a hit with Newcastle - did well at Birmingham and Brighton - reasonably well at Norwich - pretty bad at Forest and not so good with Ghana either.

Now I think Moyes is a good manager - although I don't like his personality (he has been penalised for foul and abusive language towards match officials on several occasions - and suggested to a female reporter that she deserved a slap for the questions she was asking). He has been in the game for a long time and has managed to hang around in the upper reaches of club football. However, he was reputed to be on £5m a year at West Ham and likely will be offered something similar in the near future.

I also think Hughton is a good manager - and the guy is a gentleman who is respected throughout the game. Money has never been a motivating factor for Hughton and he was the lowest played manager in the PL when at Brighton. He is also very loyal to his employers (even when they didn't reciprocate) - and has always operated on a team first basis. He also has experience as manager of an international team. One other thing that Hughton has not had in his managerial career is a group of talented young players - particularly a player like Ferguson - and I, for one, would love to see what he could do with them.

For the record, I’d be happy with Hughton. A dose of basic competence would be a refreshing change. The sooner this pantomime ends the better.

[pineapple stu]

Hughton would be fine - and looking better as this charade goes on - but I think the near deification of him is tiresome. I don't see we're going to get anyone to get excited over, and Hughton would come in that category I think. (But we can still get better than Kenny of course)

But given we seem to have approached him in April and nothing happened, what's changed now?

And surely Scotland - given their attacking performance across the three Euro games - would have missed that penalty anyway?!

[Jolly Red Giant]

But given we seem to have approached him in April and nothing happened, what's changed now?

The FAI were reported to have dismissed Hughton as a candidate at the end of January.

I suspect that the April story was more to keep the FAI process afloat (Barry was also mentioned at the same time) - and if it is accurate Hughton could have adopted the attitude of 'you rejected me a couple of months ago and now you want to talk again' - I doubt this - its not in his character. It is more likely - if it did happen - that Hughton needed to recharge the batteries and deal with the personal stress from the Ghana job. If the FAI really wanted to get Hughton they would be beating down his door at this stage.

[Eirambler]

I have to say I feel very sorry for Scotland, its a clear peno and VAR did nothing

They should be in the last 16 and now they are going home

I don't believe for a second that if thats was Germany or Spain that VAR would react in the same manner

A bit late to this, but if both players are fouling each other, surely it can't be a penalty? Armstrong was caught from behind, but he was also pulling the number 6 off the front of the Hungarian's jersey at the same time (a hint of the old Gaelic football trick - pull the defender into you to win the free). If they're both fouling each other it can only be treated as a coming together, so no penalty. Can only assume VAR saw that so decided not to intervene.

Also, it's Scotland. They'd probably have missed the penalty and even if they had scored it they'd have conceded after that anyway. They're specialists in failure, you don't get to 12 major finals and go out in the first round 12 times without having some kind of particular weakness that causes that. Especially when quite a few of those tournaments have been reducing 24 teams to 16 i.e. nearly easier to go through than get knocked out.

[texidub]

Armstrong was caught from behind, but he was also pulling the number 6 off the front of the Hungarian's jersey at the same time (a hint of the old Gaelic football trick - pull the defender into you to win the free).

That's how I saw it too, a pair of them in it, BUT in the replays it's clear that Armstrong started fouling first,m so if anything it should have been a free out.

[Diggs246]

But the shirt grab was only as a result of the Hungarian colliding into Armstrong first.

[JR89]

For the record, I’d be happy with Hughton. A dose of basic competence would be a refreshing change. The sooner this pantomime ends the better.

At this stage I'll happily take Hughton if it means JRG will finally give over constantly banging on about how great he is.

[backstothewall]

I have to say I feel very sorry for Scotland, its a clear peno and VAR did nothing

They should be in the last 16 and now they are going home

I don't believe for a second that if thats was Germany or Spain that VAR would react in the same manner

It wasn't a clear penalty. It was a 'seen them given' type coming together. There wasn't enough there to overturn the on field decision

[EalingGreen]

It wasn't a clear penalty. It was a 'seen them given' type coming together. There wasn't enough there to overturn the on field decision

Even though I thought "Penalty!" watching it live, I agree with your reading above.

The corollary being that had the ref determined it was a penalty, there probably wouldn't have been sufficiently "clear and obvious" error in his decision for VAR to overturn it. It's how it goes, really.

Anyhow, even assuming Scotland had scored the penalty, it would still only have made it 1-1 and I don't think 2 points would have been enough to secure a third placed qualification spot for them when you look at their GD after the Germany hammering?

[osarusan]

Anyhow, even assuming Scotland had scored the penalty, it would still only have made it 1-1 and I don't think 2 points would have been enough to secure a third placed qualification spot for them when you look at their GD after the Germany hammering?

It would have put them 1-0 up, not 1-1.

You can't assume the rest of the game would have panned out as it did, especially how the Scots were caught on the counter in the 100th minute trying to nab a winner.