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Thread: Next Senior Men's Team Manager - Runners and Riders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Razors left peg View Post
    Instead they'd rather hire confirmed racist Sagnol?
    I'm actually surprised nothing was brought up about Sagnol the way it was with Lennon. Must have close to 15 lads with senior caps and in the U21s with an African background.

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    International Prospect Razors left peg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JR89 View Post
    I'm actually surprised nothing was brought up about Sagnol the way it was with Lennon. Must have close to 15 lads with senior caps and in the U21s with an African background.
    I think if he was actually appointed there'd be a sh1t storm that might force him out of the job fairly quickly.

    Isn't it such an Irish thing though to say that " the PR side of things could be managed" with Sagnol but we hammer one of all time greats because we disagree with his current job. Sagnol is a racist, Robbie has bad judgement. There's a massive difference in the issues, and yet so would rather give Sagnol a pass
    Its really not that complicated!!!

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    I’d suspect there’ll be a degree uproar if Sagnol is appointed by the FAI. I think there’s a degree of dilution compared to Lennon because the original comments were in French and the nuance of whatever was said is important, so what we are generally getting is second hand reporting and isolated quotes. I’m not defending him at all, just saying there’s a degree of uncertainty that I have, which I wouldn’t have if I was a native French speaker etc.

    This bbc article does a decent job of showing the complexity and the range of reaction within French football. And it’s hard to gauge the validity of his explanations without having read the original interview… https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/29936578.amp

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    International Prospect CraftyToePoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elatedscum View Post
    This bbc article does a decent job of showing the complexity and the range of reaction within French football. And it’s hard to gauge the validity of his explanations without having read the original interview… https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/29936578.amp
    Does it though ?
    It doesn't mention the comparison he made between Nordic & African players & needing the intelligence of the former. I think if you draw that particular comparison, on that subject, you know exactly what you're saying & are fine with saying it.

    His follow up is a lot of, sorry if what I said offended you & attempts to somehow make it ok - rather, what I said was wrong & I should not have said it.

    & I read African and African heritage players making the best of an ugly mess in the fallout, no more than that.

    These days you often wonder, can following Ireland continue to keep getting worse & for how much longer ? Up step Sagnol and Clusterfcuk Canham to headhunt him. Christ.
    Last edited by CraftyToePoke; 20/05/2024 at 2:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke View Post
    But you are offering a view. An ill informed one by your own admission, but that hasn't stopped you.
    I made it perfectly clear that what I was saying was relating to the PR side of the situation and was not a personal view.

    With the best will in the world this is the second time this weekend you've decided to take a personal shot at me and you've already been called out on it once. Maybe give it a rest now.

    I don't want to get personal either but your posting style is very reminiscent of a certain poster on another forum and I can't help but wonder if you'd be better sticking to that (in my view dying) forum if you're going to persist with the unwarranted personal attacks.
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    Seasoned Pro Acornvilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JR89 View Post
    I'm actually surprised nothing was brought up about Sagnol the way it was with Lennon. Must have close to 15 lads with senior caps and in the U21s with an African background.
    FWIW I'm fairly interested in football and spend too much time online reading about and talking about it and I had somehow never seen or heard this Sagnol story, or maybe I did but had totally forgotten by now, so perhaps there just wasn't a critical mass of people who even knew, or he was never close enough to getting the job for anyone with a profile in the media to bring it up.

    While with Lennon I remember feeling surprised at the time that not enough people were binging his history up.

    Not really a statement on anything but it is funny how differently the same events can feel
    Last edited by Acornvilla; 20/05/2024 at 6:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elatedscum View Post
    I’d suspect there’ll be a degree uproar if Sagnol is appointed by the FAI. I think there’s a degree of dilution compared to Lennon because the original comments were in French and the nuance of whatever was said is important, so what we are generally getting is second hand reporting and isolated quotes. I’m not defending him at all, just saying there’s a degree of uncertainty that I have, which I wouldn’t have if I was a native French speaker etc.

    This bbc article does a decent job of showing the complexity and the range of reaction within French football. And it’s hard to gauge the validity of his explanations without having read the original interview… https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/29936578.amp

    I think the uproar will be mickey mouse and end very quickly, he will stick to his guns that he not a racist and was taking out of context and bulldoze through it
    I think he is a racist, no one using the word Nordic to describe white people can be anything other than klan!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acornvilla View Post
    FWIW I'm fairly interested in football and spend too much time online reading about and talking about it and I had somehow never seen or heard this Sagnol story, or maybe I did but had totally forgotten by now, so perhaps there just wasn't a critical mass of people who even knew, or he was never close enough to getting the job for anyone with a profile in the media to bring it up.

    While with Lennon I remember feeling surprised at the time that not enough people were binging his history up.

    Not really a statement on anything but it is funny how differently the same events can feel
    Nonsense cancel culture wasn't as rampant in 2014. Nowadays anything can be twisted to make you the bad guy. Once one person gets offended on behalf of others it's game over.

    I'd 100% take Sagnol as Ireland manager.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eirambler View Post
    That can be dealt with as required - rightly or wrongly - by Sagnol showing regret and having learnt from mistakes (see Malky Mackay in Scotland after all those text messages, he's been hired by Ross County, the SFA and most recently just this week by Hibs).
    Mackay's appointment has not gone down well with Hibs' fans, eg:
    https://news.stv.tv/sport/hibernian-...and-disgusting

    And as Sporting Director, he's presumably got more influence at the club overall than a (mere) Head Coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eirambler View Post
    Whereas bringing Keane straight in from Israel would be an absolute PR disaster.
    While PR is important, imo it shouldn't be the only, or even the overriding, factor in determining whether someone is suitable for a post.

    And as for "straight in", how is appointing someone immediately "worse" than waiting until he's had another job or two (other than peoples' memories being fresher)? Unless he's somehow rehabilitated himself in the meantime, he'd still be the same person whether now or in two or three years time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by weldoninhio View Post
    Nonsense cancel culture wasn't as rampant in 2014. Nowadays anything can be twisted to make you the bad guy. Once one person gets offended on behalf of others it's game over.

    I'd 100% take Sagnol as Ireland manager.
    Except he didn't work after Bordeaux, as a manager again until Georgia. 2016 to 2021. He was at Bayern Munich in 2017 & then a gap until his present job. Now, as you have said yourself cancel culture didn't hold such sway back then, maybe there is another reason.

    Also the players of African heritage who spoke out, and they were numerous, were not getting offended on behalf of others. So why say that ?

    By all means have your opinion on cancel culture but maybe not bolt it onto this particular matter ?
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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke View Post
    Also the players of African heritage who spoke out, and they were numerous, were not getting offended on behalf of others.
    How many spoke out? I haven't seen there was a huge amount to be honest. And others came out to defend him too as I recall.

    One of the main names that crops up who criticised the comments was a guy from New Caledonia, who absolutely was getting offended on behalf of others - New Caledonia not being in Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post

    And as for "straight in", how is appointing someone immediately "worse" than waiting until he's had another job or two (other than peoples' memories being fresher)? Unless he's somehow rehabilitated himself in the meantime, he'd still be the same person whether now or in two or three years time.
    I would say it's a difference of pure optics, but optics are important. Robbie Keane appointed in a few years after wiling away the intervening time in the States or the Championship or wherever is a guy with a bit of legacy baggage some would comment on, Robbie Keane appointed now provokes a ****storm as high as the Oireachtas. The FAI wouldn't want the latter, especially given how bad they already look recently.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    How many spoke out? I haven't seen there was a huge amount to be honest. And others came out to defend him too as I recall.

    One of the main names that crops up who criticised the comments was a guy from New Caledonia, who absolutely was getting offended on behalf of others - New Caledonia not being in Africa.
    Sagnol is a racist - and numerous black players did condemn him - those at the club were forced by the owners to come out in support of Sagnol to try and save his bacon and the club's reputation. Many spoke later about this


    His 'apology' could best be described as a 'non-apology apology' - in 2017 he was favourite for the Ghana job but they had to scrap the idea of appointing him shortly before it was due to be announced after an outcry by the people and a rebellion by the players. Sagnol had an opportunity to put his racism in the past when he was in for the Ghana job and he refused to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JR89 View Post
    I'm actually surprised nothing was brought up about Sagnol the way it was with Lennon. Must have close to 15 lads with senior caps and in the U21s with an African background.
    The reason that Sagnol's racism hasn't been prominent as Lennon's misogynist antics is because Irish soccer is very Anglo-centric and when the racism row involving Sagnol blew up in France it was largely confined to French language media.

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    International Prospect Razors left peg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    How many spoke out? I haven't seen there was a huge amount to be honest. And others came out to defend him too as I recall.

    One of the main names that crops up who criticised the comments was a guy from New Caledonia, who absolutely was getting offended on behalf of others - New Caledonia not being in Africa.

    So if Gavin Bazunu says he would be uncomfortable working with Sagnol would you say that Ireland is not Africa so whats the problem?
    Its really not that complicated!!!

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razors left peg View Post
    So if Gavin Bazunu says he would be uncomfortable working with Sagnol would you say that Ireland is not Africa so whats the problem?
    Random hypotheticals are rarely worthwhile.

    Sagnol's comments were more on the nature of coaching in Africa as I recall, so should have little relevance to Bazunu though.

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    International Prospect Razors left peg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Random hypotheticals are rarely worthwhile.

    Sagnol's comments were more on the nature of coaching in Africa as I recall, so should have little relevance to Bazunu though.
    No no, you are the one who brought the New Calidonian guy into the discussion, and his right to be annoyed at Sagnols comment, so someone with African heritage could feel similarly.

    Sagnol literally said that Africans needed Nordics in the team with them. That's as blatant a racist statement as you can make and people had every right to hammer him for it
    Its really not that complicated!!!

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Yes - but Sagnol's comments had nothing to do with African heritage, did they?

    They were specifically at poor coaching techniques in Africa (not surprising really, given the lack of funds), which can lead to players who are technically not great and wouldn't have a top-level reading of the game.

    A similar comment would be to say Irish players are cheap, technically poor, but they make up for that in terms of will to win to some extent. Is that racist? No it's not. It's probably true in fact. Would Bazunu have a right to be offended by it? Nope, cos it's not racist. Would Josh Cullen - of Irish heritage - have a right to be offended by it? Nope - cos he didn't come through Irish academy systems and the comments don't relate to him. (Plus cos it's not racist to start off with)

    As you yourself say - it's really not that complicated.

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    International Prospect Razors left peg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu View Post
    Yes - but Sagnol's comments had nothing to do with African heritage, did they?

    They were specifically at poor coaching techniques in Africa (not surprising really, given the lack of funds), which can lead to players who are technically not great and wouldn't have a top-level reading of the game.

    A similar comment would be to say Irish players are cheap, technically poor, but they make up for that in terms of will to win to some extent. Is that racist? No it's not. It's probably true in fact. Would Bazunu have a right to be offended by it? Nope, cos it's not racist. Would Josh Cullen - of Irish heritage - have a right to be offended by it? Nope - cos he didn't come through Irish academy systems and the comments don't relate to him. (Plus cos it's not racist to start off with)

    As you yourself say - it's really not that complicated.

    "The advantage of what I would call the typical African player is that he isn't expensive when you sign him, [he is] a player who is ready for combat, but football isn't just about that," Sagnol said. Explaining himself, he continued: "Football is also [about] technique, intelligence. You need a bit of everything. You need Nordics too, Nordics are good."

    Thats the comment from Sagnol. If you want make excuses for him and try find ways to justify it a long hard look in the mirror is needed!
    Its really not that complicated!!!

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razors left peg View Post
    "The advantage of what I would call the typical African player is that he isn't expensive when you sign him, [he is] a player who is ready for combat, but football isn't just about that," Sagnol said. Explaining himself, he continued: "Football is also [about] technique, intelligence. You need a bit of everything. You need Nordics too, Nordics are good."

    Thats the comment from Sagnol. If you want make excuses for him and try find ways to justify it a long hard look in the mirror is needed!
    The advantage of the typical Irish player is that he isn't expensive when you sign him. He is a player who is ready for combat, but football isn't just about that. Football is also about technique, intelligence.

    Racist? Or true?

    How long are Everton fans singing about how little they paid for Séamus Coleman? Is that racist? How often are Irish players described as technically inferior but well up for it? Is that racist?

    Nothing in that about heritage either, despite how eager you are to bring it into things.

    Some people just get off on getting offended to be honest.
    Last edited by pineapple stu; 20/05/2024 at 7:54 PM.

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