Palestinian Israeli Conflict.

[Neish]

Just read on The Guardian website that the home of Issa Amro who featured in Theroux documentary "The Settlers" was raided by at first Israeli military then a group of settlers. Seems to nothing more than pure vengance. See link for more https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-r...ux-documentary

[Dermobohs]

And it goes on and on. Since the last postHUNDREDS of people, not terrorists, people have been murdered by Israel, the USA and Britain.
Genocide, Holocaust, it doesn’t matter if the victims aren’t white apparently

[The Fly]

I used to say it in jest but the best thing that the Palestinian people could do is have a mass conversion to Christianity.

[seanfhear]

I used to say it in jest but the best thing that the Palestinian people could do is have a mass conversion to Christianity.

Islam certainly hasn't done much for them ~ Or Islamic Countries either !

[The Fly]

Islam certainly hasn't done much for them ~ Or Islamic Countries either !

I’m not talking about what Islam has or hasn’t done for them. What I mean is that the American (and European) reaction to the conflict would probably be very different.

[seanfhear]

I’m not talking about what Islam has or hasn’t done for them. What I mean is that the American (and European) reaction to the conflict would probably be very different.

I had taken that in to consideration, but decided to add my own thoughts to your point ~ Obviously your points stands on its own ~ And, mine may also be worthy of debate, particularly how little help, that Islamic Countries give to the Palestinians !

[pineapple stu]

I’m not talking about what Islam has or hasn’t done for them. What I mean is that the American (and European) reaction to the conflict would probably be very different.

I don't think the European reaction to the conflict is based on religion. I think it's based more on money. Possibly embarrassment at what happened in World War II also.

Judaism has a long connection with old money in America, so it carries a lot of influence in the halls of power there.

Either way, the support it gets is increasingly baffling.

The Saudis put a fair bit of money into Palestine afaik (which is unfortunate as they also push their nasty brand of conservative Islam on them too.)

[The Fly]

I don't think the European reaction to the conflict is based on religion. I think it's based more on money. Possibly embarrassment at what happened in World War II also.

The European reaction is much less important, hence the brackets. But I mentioned it in response to Dermaboh's claim about skin colour being a factor in the ongoing suffering over there. And it's a claim that probably has some, or a lot of, merit to it.

Judaism has a long connection with old money in America, so it carries a lot of influence in the halls of power there.

It does, but as a counterweight to a suffering 'Christian' nation I'm not sure how far that influence would go. This is all a kind of speculative counterfactual nonsense anyway.

Either way, the support it gets is increasingly baffling.

With Trump's latest round of deal making in the Middle East that support may begin to wane a bit, but who knows?

[pineapple stu]

I don't know about the skin colour claim to be honest. It's a very popular idea in the social media age to be obsessed by skin colour, but I don't think there's much real evidence for it here. I guess in wars you have to "other" the enemy and things like skin colour and religion are handy ways of doing that, but it doesn't necessarily answer the question of why there's so much support for Israel in the first place - and I think the US is supporting Israel rather than opposing Palestine here. And the US has backed Israel for decades - literally back to its inception, when it was the first country to recognise Israel.

I do think money is a big factor - Israel buys lots of US weapons for example; gotta keep those sales pipelines open. Possibly there's an element that having reliable weapons orders keeping R&D sharp is an extension of the cold war; Russia supports Syria because it buys lots of Russian arms for example.

Interestingly, I wonder how different the reaction to Russia would have been Poland, the Czechs and Sweden not openly boycotted them in the World Cup playoffs. Russia also provides a lot of wealth to the west (in terms of financial investments from the oligarchs) and also heating fuel, which is fairly important. But the boycott really called FIFA's bluff, and then other sports really had to follow, and there's been no valid reason for going back since then.

[The Fly]

I don't know about the skin colour claim to be honest. It's a very popular idea in the social media age to be obsessed by skin colour, but I don't think there's much real evidence for it here.

It's an intuitive thing I suppose, and something which will therefore vary from person to person; from a non-existent feeling in some to a very potent one in others.

The evidence for it is the mere fact of it. Palestinians are Middle-Eastern people with brown skin, almost all of whom are Muslim (whether that be culturally so or strict adherents, and everything in-between). They're 'othered' by default in other words.

I guess in wars you have to "other" the enemy and things like skin colour and religion are handy ways of doing that, but it doesn't necessarily answer the question of why there's so much support for Israel in the first place - and I think the US is supporting Israel rather than opposing Palestine here. And the US has backed Israel for decades - literally back to its inception, when it was the first country to recognise Israel.

I do think money is a big factor - Israel buys lots of US weapons for example; gotta keep those sales pipelines open. Possibly there's an element that having reliable weapons orders keeping R&D sharp is an extension of the cold war; Russia supports Syria because it buys lots of Russian arms for example.

Money, strategic interests in the region, arms sales etc explains a lot of the support. Cultural factors also feature...I had a conversation with a Baptist friend of mine the other day who quoted from Deuteronomy saying that the Israelites are God's chosen people. He shares the same forebears as a lot of the supporters of Israel in the US do.

Interest in the region will never wane either because that region is the crucible for the Abrahamic religions. It's not just that there's history there. It is History in a sense. I've often wondered if the whiteness of the Israelis themselves plays a part in the interest, relative to other conflict zones across the world. The comparative openness of Israeli society also factors into our knowledge of what's going on, which some may find a bit of a pill to swallow. So...there's a whole kaleidoscope of stuff going on there.

[pineapple stu]

The Palestinians are certainly "othered" - and I find the Israelis inherently racist too. I know that's a generalisation, but in this case it seems to be true. Levison Wood, Simon Reeve and Dervla Murphy are among those who've travelled there and come away with barely a good word to say about the Israelis in general. And Louis Theroux obviously. (I've forgotten what his dad, Paul, said when he was there in the 90s - must read that one again, but I remember lots of guns)

But people will start wars for reasons other than skin colour - Russia in Ukraine the obvious example. The Brits here. The Rwandan genocide or the Saudis in Yemen if you want to mix up colour. I think skin colour can be a difference in the Middle East without necessarily being the root cause.

Religion/history in the area is certainly a big contributing factor, yeah. In that regard this is just a modern Crusade.

But I think the US (and the Europeans, by extension) would have supported Israel whoever it picked on. I think the Israelis are racist, but that doesn't necessarily explain the support they get. I can't imagine what goes on in world leaders' heads. Are they convinced by Israeli PR? Or are they playing a bigger game (or Game, I guess, to parallel your post!)?

[SkStu]

None of the following is intended to give Israel a free pass on the genocide that is now undoubtedly being committed - but - doesn't the matter of support for Palestine have a lot to do with the fact that it is borderline impossible to support a state that is led by a terrorist organization - especially one whose mandate is to destroy a long time supposed ally of the West? I think it has far more to do with that obstacle than it does with specifically race or religion. All that said, the natural question then becomes how can they support a murderous, genocidal regime whose land grabs have been no less illegal than, say, Russia? The West needs to dramatically rethink and shift its relationship with and support for the Israeli state. Early days, I felt that Israel was justified in its response to the October massacre but any support i had then petered out pretty damn quickly. Unforgivable what is happening there.

[Neish]

Islam certainly hasn't done much for them ~ Or Islamic Countries either !

I feel a Life of Brian sketch in the making

https://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/m...ons/index.html

And in the first 6-12 months of Israels aggression most aid for the Palestinians was coming from or through UAE, Egypt, Qatar & Jordan

[pineapple stu]

First vaguely positive signs from the Israeli genocide recently as protests against the war have started up in Israel. My (very limited) interaction with Israelis suggests far too many of them are fully supportive of what's going on - have bought in fully to the land claims and so on. Netanyahu may be under a bit more pressure now - which may push him the other way of course

And the protestors haven't even been arrested so far as I'm aware, which is more than can be said for England, where 900 were arrested for holding placards in support of Palestine outside Westminster. Their "crime" was involvement with Palestine Action, a designated terror group (because they spray-painted some planes). Israel isn't a terrorist country, but Palestine Action is a terror organisation, which of course makes no sense.

Coming in the week that Graham Linehan was arrested for a tweet criticising men's rights to enter female-only areas (signed off with "punch them in the balls") - which even the police have said was a complete waste of their time and resources - and you'd worry about the way England is going to be honest. Are politicians simply outlawing views they don't like? Is that really the basis for a free speech democracy? How do politicians think people will react when you don't engage in discourse and simply rule their views illegal? Are they not driving societal polarisation by acting in real life effectively like so many people do online these days?

(And that goes across two topics I guess - three is if you segue to Simon Harris' bomb threats)

[osarusan]

UN inquiry says that Israel has committed genocide in Gaza.

A United Nations commission of inquiry says Israel has committed genocide against Palestinians in Gaza.

A new report says there are reasonable grounds to conclude that four of the five genocidal acts defined under international law have been carried out since the start of the war with Hamas in 2023: killing members of a group, causing them serious bodily and mental harm, deliberately inflicting conditions calculated to destroy the group, and preventing births.

It cites statements by Israeli leaders, and the pattern of conduct by Israeli forces, as evidence of genocidal intent.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8641wv0n4go

[pineapple stu]

Does that have any practical effect?

Or would Ireland/Spain withdrawing from Eurovision have more impact in real life? Thinking of how it was Poland refusing to play Russia in the World Cup play-offs that really saw them banned from the international stage.

[osarusan]

Does that have any practical effect?

Or would Ireland/Spain withdrawing from Eurovision have more impact in real life? Thinking of how it was Poland refusing to play Russia in the World Cup play-offs that really saw them banned from the international stage.

No idea really, but it gets harder and harder for anybody to plausibly deny.

[SkStu]

It doesn't (well maybe eurovision would )... the only thing(s) that will make a difference are not going to happen. Until then, Israel will just keep doing their thing, laughing at the outrage while they're doing it.

[dahamsta]

Great that the UK has finally recognised Palestine. Way too late of course, but better late than never.

[Razors left peg]

At what point to Israel get banned by UEFA and FIFA? I seen a headline last week that Spain are threatening to pull out of World Cup if Israel are involved, not sure how good a source it was. That would be minor consequences in the grand scheme of things but it'd be something!