Would someone else like to tag in here because I can't waste any more of my life on this. I just wish you could try and look at this situation from a few more perspectives Sbgawa, it is honestly hurting my soul reading this.
TBH i think its you who need to look at it from a few more perspectives.
It would be nice if you acknowledged based on pretty clear stats that the Israelis arent Nazi final solution merchants but maybe you are right and they will decide a year later to start to implement one (they do have Nukes after all) if they do we will find ourselves on the same side.
On that basis i hope you and i are still on oposite sides in a years time.
I am definitely in absolute horror at what Israel is doing every day. As I have said before, it is like taking a gun to a knife fight. They have a responsibility to be precise and targetted in how they address the absolute sh!t that Hamas and Hezbollah get up to, with the support of those absolute lunatics that control Iran. And they have totally absolved themselves of that responsibility with no repercussions whatsoever except a few tsk tsks from countries that have an obligation to do better and more in that regard. With that said, I would like to get peoples take on the following. For all that Israel has a responsibility to be precise and targetted in how they attack the lunatics on the other side, what responsibility do Hamas and Hezbollah have to keep their civilians safe? I have read articles in reputable sites (incl. NATO, WaPo) the extent to which both parties (H&H) might be using their civilians as human shields and it is a fairly abhorrent situation even from that perspective. Of course, the extent etc is disputed but the evidence is strong. And its a win/win for them. It truly is sickening. There are no good guys. Both sides are massive c*nts.
I like high energy football. A little bit rock and roll. Many finishes instead of waiting for the perfect one.
And in the past year alone, Israel has killed around 10% of the Palestinian population. Sounds pretty similar to me.Originally Posted by sbgawa
Israel killed fewer in prior years, but they killed plenty - and then it comes down to a question of scale. Is there a percentage of a country you're ok with having killed? 2%? 5% maybe? Where do you draw the line?
Ultimately it's the same mindset of genocide - and that's why I link the Nazis with Israel.
Do you think the Palestinians are wild animals whose numbers need to be culled to keep their population down? Otherwise this comment is irrelevant at best, and "downright disturbing" is probably closer the case.
Yeah - about that. Israel cut off food aid to Palestine last year.
In the past 12 months, Israel is absolutely keeping pace with the Nazis in this regard. And arguably omnipresent media is holding them back in a way Hitler never had to deal with. It's probably what's holding them back on their full-on launch on Rafah, which has been threatened for a while - and which would drive deaths way, way up.
Banning elections is probably one of the least worst things the Nazis did, but two comments. The minorty vote is irrelevant; in a multi-party democracy, it's rare to have a majority vote. 44% (which they got) is actually pretty big. And secondly, I think the Nazis remained quite popular until the last year of the war, when things started to turn - they quite likely would have been voted back in the same way Israelis keep voting Likud back in.
Edit - actually, v it's 1% of Palestinians israel has killed in the last year, not 10%. Apologies. I don't think really negates the point though
Last edited by pineapple stu; 04/10/2024 at 8:14 PM.
Has anybody on here suggested that H&H are anything other than scum? I don't think so, though there will inevitably be 'wokerati' or just edgelords in various online and offline spaces. Using your own civilians as shields is utterly barbaric.
Any I can have a certain degree of understanding of Israeli soldiers torn between not striking a legitimate target because of civilian casualties, or taking the strike and having to suffer the bad press that comes with it.
But what we are seeing goes far beyond that. What we are seeing is an Israeli military that has demonstrated itself of extremely precise attacks, yet still uses massive bombs to cause massive damage. And systematically laying waste to Gazan insfrastructure (through the razing of schools, government buildings etc) to make any return as difficult and protracted as possible.
And at every turn, absurdly justifying the demolition of buildings and the killing of civilians by connecting anything and everything to Hamas, safe in the knowledge that they can tell that lie over and over again without any consequences, because the few countries (one, really) that could actually get in their way will not do so.
Last edited by osarusan; 04/10/2024 at 6:31 PM.
So we’re all in agreement that what we are dealing with here is massive c*nts on both sides?
H&H seem to get a free pass, including here, for their apparent disregard for the wellbeing of their civilians. And how this plays into and is a part of what shocks us all. They know what they’re doing, they know what will come and they continue putting their people in the way in spite of this, knowing it ultimately serves them well. That’s f*cking twisted and, really, no better than the same disregard Israel shows for the same people. Not aimed at you, it just needs to be said and acknowledged instead of being deflected.
I think the problem here is the debate started out countering the suggestion Israel was the culture we could and should associate with, and has gone on to be arguing against that point in the main
That doesn't mean everyone else is brilliant of course. But it's only natural the way the discussion has evolved
Actually stu with all due respect it does kind of change the argument 1% is not genocide. 1% is still to much in a pointless war but it does say even more than ever that a nuclear power like Israel are not Nazis as I have been trying to point out. Does that make them boy scouts no. War is horrible but Israel don't deserve the one side bull**** genocide nazi crap that is put out there. 1% is not genocide or nazi comparable. Its still to many people but let's not exaggerate and compare with nazis it's insulting.
If Israel were nazis they would have nuked the Arab countries and the problem from their perspective would have been solved. Does anyone here have any doubt tahg hitler would have used nukes if he had them?
Last edited by sbgawa; 04/10/2024 at 9:36 PM.
Can we all maybe agree as stk stu so eloquently puts we are dealing with two horrible feckers who will hopefully stop shooting each other in a pointless war
I thought you might try use the 1% to wangle out of it. That's pretty pathetic.
It's listed on the wikipedia list of genocides page. I don't think there's any definition of genocide that includes the base=level % of people murdered that qualifies. There's plenty of definitions of genocide - here's one from, ironically, an Israeli called Israel:
I think all those boxes are ticked.Genocide in the generic sense means the mass killing of substantial numbers of human beings, when not in the course of military action against the military forces of an avowed enemy, under conditions of the essential defenselessness of the victim
Here's another from that link -
Again, all those boxes ticked.A genocidal mass murder is politically motivated violence that directly or indirectly kills a substantial proportion of a targeted population, combatants and noncombatants alike, regardless of their age or gender.
You could possibly argue it's ethnic cleansing rather than genocide - which really doesn't improve things much given the Nazis were guilty of that too, so we still end up at the same point that you can't argue you identify with Israel while not identifying with the Nazis.
Give me a break Stu. The nazis killed 65% of the Jews while the population of Gaza is rising. Agreeing that the war is wrong on both sides and pointless which I think we both would doesn't excuse the nonsense claim that the Israelis are nazis when the facts are completely contrary. If you want to quote Wikipedia definitions fine but it doesn't make Israelis nazis in fact if anything it shows yiu plucking at straw's to try to redefine genocide but not acknowledging that the Israelis are not anything like the nazis . Trying to coral them both under a Wikipedia definition while ignoring the massive difference between what they dis/ do is riddiculous
You can say u hate the Israelis on principle and do t care that they Rent actually committing genocide. You are entitled to your opinion but a growing population compared to a 66% kill rate makes a nonsense of the genocide arguemwnt
EDIT: Never mind, I was about 3 pages back.
@sbgawa, I find it very hard to believe that you actually believe what you're saying, but sure work away, the lads are doing a great job showing you up for it.
Last edited by dahamsta; 05/10/2024 at 4:31 PM.
They are showing up something alright.
Seymour Skinner - no it's the children who are wrong.
Can't really bring myself to shake up the meme itself. It's outrageous in this day and age that anyone can attempt to justify the actions of a murderous regime.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
It's ok though - the population of Palestine is increasing, so really it's just population control, not genocide.
Nothing to see here. (In particular, I don't see a contrary definition of genocide to challenge the two I've linked)
Im getting pretty sick of the OTT stuff,
Where have i tried to justify Israels actions??
From the start of this thread ive condemned the violence on both sides and said it was pointless.
Im sorry if me refusing to call the Israelies Nazis uosets you but i simply think thats OTT , does anyone think if Hitler had Nukes he would have used them...its a riddiculous comparison.
If the Israelies wanted to wipe the Palestinians off the map they could do it. If they did by the way id have no difficulty calling them Nazis.
How you can say me condemning violence, calling for it to stop but simply refusing to call them Nazis is justifying their actions is beyond me.
Mind you it is symtomatic of the debate in this country.
Again more of the OTT stuff.
Its not ok Stu , ive repeatedly said it needs to stop and if me refusing to call the Israelis Nazis means you think i do think its ok you are wrong and id appreciate if you stopped saying it.
Most people dont reach for a dictionary for definitions they use common sense and apart from the people that can only see one side of the equation i think most people would see it the same.
The Israelis are killing way to many people and its pointless but they arent NAzis........
By the way your dictionary definition would fit HAMAS , would you consider them to be carrying out genocide or maybe there werent enough killed on Oct 7th.?
Last edited by sbgawa; 06/10/2024 at 9:01 PM.
Definitions are actually really important when discussing things.
It is not possible to argue that most people use common sense and don't reach for a definition when discussing things. That's a complete oxymoron.
You also ask where you've tried to justify Israeli actions. I'd say this from post 59 needs some explaining if it's not support for Israel -
Or this from post 68 -If Iran and its mullahs are on one side its easy enough for me to side with a democratic Israel.
Ultimately your main argument for disagreeing that two democratically-elected, genocidal, expansionist, aggressive regimes which have groomed a cult-like, unquestioning, belief in their stance among their population are different comes down to a matter of scale.Hence i ignore the whataboutery of who is at fault and support the side that more clearly reflects my view of the world.
I don't agree that's good enough.
The Hamas attacks were terrorist attacks in my view. Pretty appalling ones as terrorist attacks go too. But it was a one-off event, not a multi-year campaign. (For example, another definition on that page - "Genocide should be defined in broad and general terms as the execution of a large-scale and systematic plan with the intention of destroying a human group as such in whole or in part."; my emphasis)
Fortunately literally everyone else on the thread also seems to strongly disagree with your stance, which should be revealing
Perhaps youve missunderstood me rather than deliberatly quoting me out of context.
Those comments were me saying that while i condemn violence on both sides and do not and can not justify it i believe that of the two sides i prefer Israel.
They dont hate us and our western values around minorities and Woman unlike the other side of Mad Mullahs and Dictators and that kind of seals it for me
You can support people without liking approving or justifying everything they do.
Im sorry if it offends you and youd prefer if i liked the Mullahs but i dont and i dont think most people do either.
I can see your perspective that 6 million Jews in the seconf world war is Genocide (i assume you do agree) 40000 Palistinians/ Arabs is Genocide but 1200 Jews in one day and many more over the years isnt but i disagree. I am allowed to. I think Scale does matter tbh otherwise words lose all meaning. Its why every Sunday on Sky Sports is Super Sunday and the Premier league is the Greatest league in the world (while we know its ours that is).
When your pals talk about Palistine being free from the River to the Sea do you think they are talking about a peaceful transition, they repeatedly call for death to all jews and arent even embarressed about saying it, id combine that with Oct 7th and say they Want to commit genocide but cant do it compared to the ISraelis who could do it at the push of a nuclear button but dont.
As HAMAS havent killed enough jews to fit your definition maybe you could agree that with their calls for death to all jews and the start they have made since Oct 7th that they are Nazis just not very efficient ones??
Will you call them Nazis when they hit the magic number somewhere between 1200 and 40000?
What is the magic numebr of Jews for HAMAS to kill ? to fit the definition?
Last edited by sbgawa; 06/10/2024 at 10:06 PM.
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