Palestinian Israeli Conflict.

[SkStu]

I don't really understand this post to be honest. You seem to be suggesting that I support Hamas in some way, and I've no idea where you're getting that from.

Ah no, not at all - sorry if i gave that impression. The point I was trying to make, maybe clumsily, is that there are no good guys in this conflict. And i struggle to see how one is materially better or worse (more/less justified in their actions) than the other. Both sides are, in their different ways, utterly reprehensible. But there seems to always be a prevailing tendency to focus on the wrongs of Israel and their supporters while pardoning or downplaying the actions and mentality of Hamas (and I don't limit that to the recent events/atrocities) and their supporters. And as i said on the Robbie Keane thread, I'm not convinced there is a workable solution when you have aggression and rhetoric on both sides that is so absolute.

[dahamsta]

Perhaps it's my inherent dislike of the Israeli state in general and Netanyahu in particular showing, but I think an actual state has more responsibility than... whatever the hell Hamas is. They have been working inexorably towards the thing they escaped from since day one. Don't even get me started on the stuff they got up to to go nuclear, or Mossad generally. They make the CIA look like tellytubbies.

And the people keep voting for them, like Americans voting for Trump and Tipp people voting for Lowry. It's just gross.

I have no sympathy for either of them. They're both disgusting in their own ways. But again, Israel is a state.

[pineapple stu]

But there seems to always be a prevailing tendency to focus on the wrongs of Israel and their supporters while pardoning or downplaying the actions and mentality of Hamas

I think that's probably out of an understanding (maybe based on our own history) that Israel are clearly the aggressors in all this, and that if you poke anyone as much as Israel have, you're going to get a backlash.

That's just human nature, without saying it's right to storm a rave party and machine-gun down a couple of hundred people, or anything else Hamas have done.

One of the big problems from anything I've seen of this issue is how many ordinary Israelis buy the rhetoric that the Palestinians deserve to be treated in the way they are. It's a fairly small sample - a few people online, or stuff like Levison Wood's Arabia or Paul Theroux's The Pillar of Hercules. It's a really unhelpful element though. And I'm sure the feeling is more than mutual.

Agree with dahamsta too that there's an element of State v random terrorist organisation here (like the British Government and the IRA actually)

[dahamsta]

^^^ Said it better than me.

[SkStu]

I think that's probably out of an understanding (maybe based on our own history) that Israel are clearly the aggressors in all this, and that if you poke anyone as much as Israel have, you're going to get a backlash.

That's just human nature, without saying it's right to storm a rave party and machine-gun down a couple of hundred people, or anything else Hamas have done.

One of the big problems from anything I've seen of this issue is how many ordinary Israelis buy the rhetoric that the Palestinians deserve to be treated in the way they are. It's a fairly small sample - a few people online, or stuff like Levison Wood's Arabia or Paul Theroux's The Pillar of Hercules. It's a really unhelpful element though. And I'm sure the feeling is more than mutual.

Agree with dahamsta too that there's an element of State v random terrorist organisation here (like the British Government and the IRA actually)

Kind of but... Hamas is an elected body with large support across Palestine and is responsible for the governance of Gaza. To the best of my knowledge, there is no distinction between Hamas as a political organization and a terrorist organization (unlike SF/IRA) and they obtained majority support and close to 50% of the vote. My point is really to ask why the people who voted for Hamas aren't equally as worthy of contempt as Israel? I know - and have clearly talked about how much Israel must shoulder the blame for the situation - but i think, objectively, the other side is also at fault and this needs to be acknowledged and changed if peace is the objective.

Not only is Hamas an entity that is anti-Semitic to its core and wants to destroy Israel (with similar beliefs and actual support from many other players in the region) but - and we all are fairly knowledgeable on the history - but this also goes back to the events that led to the creation of the State of Israel and ultimately to the 1948 war. If you want to play the blame game (i say that generally, not to anyone in particular on here) I think it is only right to follow the thread back as far as reasonable to understand what decisions and activities led to the current entrenched positions and actions of both sides. If you believe the State of Israel should exist, you should, by extension, believe that it deserves to exist a) free from threat of destruction and b) that it upholds the responsibilities of a state. Neither a) nor b) are happening.

I truly don't want to put myself in the position here of being seen to defend Israel, as i really do not feel that way, but I just don't buy fully into the "Israel is the cause" line and so I'm playing devils advocate in the interest of healthy discussion. At the very least that statement or position comes with a ton of history, context and qualifications that shouldn't be ignored or dismissed by people with strong opinions one way or another.

I'm actually really interested in hearing from folks here on what it might take for the situation to resolve? With all that history, context, rhetoric etc... it seems impossible that a platform on which to build "peace" is even there.

[joey B]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-ye...our-faces/amp/

Worthwhile article on Hamas and the Israeli government’s relationship with it,Netanyahu has played a big part in its consolidation of power in Gaza……

[osarusan]

America ~ ~ They all pretty much do as America directs.

Not really. USA has been a staunch supporter of Israel for years, and while this Hamas attack is particularly gruesome in terms of the scale and nature of the killings, it's not unprecedented.

But this time various Eurpoean parliaments and landmark buildings are beaming with the Israeli flag and EU countries and leaders are 'standing with Israel' in a way that is unprecedented.

[pineapple stu]

Kind of but... Hamas is an elected body with large support across Palestine and is responsible for the governance of Gaza. To the best of my knowledge, there is no distinction between Hamas as a political organization and a terrorist organization (unlike SF/IRA) and they obtained majority support and close to 50% of the vote.

Fair point actually. Though I do still think the Palestinians/Hamas are far more sinned against than sinning in all this.

I'm actually really interested in hearing from folks here on what it might take for the situation to resolve? With all that history, context, rhetoric etc... it seems impossible that a platform on which to build "peace" is even there.

I had a couple of comments in the other thread, but they're purely hypothetical as I don't think Israel has any interest a resolution really.

In the immediate term, what's needed now is a calm, measured response from Israel. So what are they doing? Telling a million people they have to leave the north end of Gaza within 24 hours. That's utterly barbaric, and if it goes ahead would surely rank as one of the worst atrocities in living memory? And that's after already quietly killing more Palestinians since the attack than Hamas did in the original ones.

There's surely no other outcome possible now than an escalation of violence. EU leaders can't keep having Israel's back with this response.

[sbgawa]

Israel is a functioning democracy that is surrounded by a bunch of basket case countries ruled by Despots and Religious nut jobs.
My instinct is to support them a bit like when the Cold war was brewing and i had to ask myself would i rather have the USA or Russia rule the world...lesser of two evils.
I dont think there is a solution to the problem which is a bit depressing.
The Gaza strip is just a piece of Land...if Israel pushed every resident into Egypt it just moves the problem a few miles South with Tunnels and attacks from there instead.
I dont think Israel showing "restraint" will win them any credit from Hamas , the kind of people that shoot Children at a concert arent to bothered about subtelty....
The violence will escalate and die down eventually before starting again...like i said a bit depressing

[pineapple stu]

Plenty of religious nutjobs in Israel too. Just because it's a different religion doesn't mean they're not as nutty. The Ultra-Orthodox Jews ironically may be the breaking of Israel in the future. High birth rates and a general refusal to work, because studying the Torah is more important. They'll be a huge part of the Israeli population in another generation and there's already discussions around what'll happen the economy when that happens.

Think that qualifies as "religious nutjobs" in my book. And guess who they've been supporting in power? Yep - Netanyahu.

[sbgawa]

If i had to live in either Iran or Israel i know where i would live and certainly where the missus would.

I dont want anyone killed either by having their head hacked off , beig shot at a concert or having a bomb dropped on them from a Jet.
The whole middle east is a disaster area. If ISrael was gone in the morning it would still be a disaster area, with one less functioning democracy.

[pineapple stu]

If i had to live in either Iran or Israel i know where i would live and certainly where the missus would.

In fairness, that's not really relevant to the discussion.

One of the ironies of the current problems in Iran is that its people are revolting against the regime. (They'd probably be called Islamophobic here). If more people did that throughout the Middle East, it'd be a better place.

Conservative Islam is a horrible culture (by our standards), but let's not let that kid ourselves into thinking Israel is a beacon of sanity "surrounded by a bunch of basket case countries". It's also a pretty nasty place with plenty of religious nutjobs pulling the strings.

[SkStu]

And guess who they've been supporting in power? Yep - Netanyahu.

The interesting thing is that the opposition party in Israel position on Israel protection is only slightly less "warmongery" than Likud!! I mean they are slightly better in that they ran on a campaign of striving for peace but also protecting Israel and maintenance of the current settlements (albeit no expansion)... while change is good in this scenario (Netanyahu carries baggage), improvement in relations would be marginal if you ask me. With that domestic political landscape/philosophy, it also forces you to take a look at why they have to be so resolute in their positions. They are surrounded by countries and terrorist groups that want to destroy them!

[sbgawa]

In fairness, that's not really relevant to the discussion.

One of the ironies of the current problems in Iran is that its people are revolting against the regime. (They'd probably be called Islamophobic here). If more people did that throughout the Middle East, it'd be a better place.

Conservative Islam is a horrible culture (by our standards), but let's not let that kid ourselves into thinking Israel is a beacon of sanity "surrounded by a bunch of basket case countries". It's also a pretty nasty place with plenty of religious nutjobs pulling the strings.

TBF Stu , i never said it was a beacon of Sanity , i just think that if you look at the middle east as a whole Israel is probably the least basket case country compared to its neighbours. That doesnt mean i support them i just think its self evidently true.

It s a case of in the Kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king

[pineapple stu]

i just think that if you look at the middle east as a whole Israel is probably the least basket case country compared to its neighbours.

I don't think this is self-evidently true to be honest.

Other countries may have had civil wars, but Israel is a really nasty aggressor state in the region. I think that - and this idea of giving 1 million people 24 hours to leave their homes - is worse.

[Trequartista20]

In the last few days, the Zionist regime has carried out deadly attacks on the West Bank, Syria, Lebanon, (where it appears they have killed multiple members of the press - very probably deliberately), and Gaza, to whose people they are in the process of subjecting an utterly barbaric mediaeval-style siege, denying its population food, electricity, water and medicine. They've also threatened to bomb Egyptian convoys trying to send absolutely essential life-saving aid through the only port of entry they don't control.

This is what we are dealing with - a regional menace, 'democratic' or not. The people of Gaza are facing complete annihilation. This is genocide. The death toll in Gaza already exceeds that of the purported number of deaths caused by Hamas's actions. Many hundreds of children have been killed. Even before this latest round of blood letting, more Palestinian children had been killed in a single year than ever before. Half of Gaza's 2.3 million people are children.

The Zionist entity are deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure, including a university, schools, high-rise residential blocks, hospitals and places of worship.

They are using white phosphorus munitions. This war crime, unlike their lies of decapitated babies, is true and has been confirmed by the UN. Palestinians in the West Bank are also being slaughtered. In July, the IDF carried out a murderous bombing of the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank. A f**king refugee camp.

What the Zionists' are perpetrating is absolutely evil. These are crimes against humanity. And this has as been going on for 75 years. The state calling itself 'Israel' is in violation of more UN resolutions than all other nations put together. It is an an apartheid state ruled by nazis.

Call this an 'anti-Semitic' 'rant' if you want, but how any human being can attempt to draw any sort of moral equivalence between this wealthy Western-backed occupying colonialist regime with fighter jets, attack helicopters, gun boats, advanced drones, submarines, tanks, GPS guided projectiles, incendiary munitions, long range ballistic missiles and nuclear warheads, and its impoverished, dispossessed victims in Palestine, trying, largely impotently, to resist using, until recently, only crude homemade rockets and throwing stones, simply defies belief.

In fact, it's a truly despicable position to take.

[sbgawa]

Well that's certainly a considered attempt at seeing both sides of the situation.

[nigel-harps1954]

Well that's certainly a considered attempt at seeing both sides of the situation.

I'm not sure you gave a better balance within your own posting, to be fair. It all looked fairly one sided to me, from my reading.

[mark12345]

What can Hamas have expected to achieve by this action? There can only be one Israeli response with such a hawkish regime in charge. Who's influencing them and why?

Might someone be trying to galvanise domestic far right support given Netanhyu's unpopular changes to domestic judicial policy and/or his upcoming corruption case? (Conspiracy alert!!)

I also heard that US support for Israel will reduce supply of weapons available to support Ukraine. Any truth in this?

Support for Israel will reduce weapons for Ukraine - that is what's being said here in America. And that is ok with many people here as the billions of US tax payer dollars being sent to Ukraine are viewed as single handedly funding the war there. People feel there are a multitude of problems in America which the money could be spent on instead.

[mark12345]

In the last few days, the Zionist regime has carried out deadly attacks on the West Bank, Syria, Lebanon, (where it appears they have killed multiple members of the press - very probably deliberately), and Gaza, to whose people they are in the process of subjecting an utterly barbaric mediaeval-style siege, denying its population food, electricity, water and medicine. They've also threatened to bomb Egyptian convoys trying to send absolutely essential life-saving aid through the only port of entry they don't control.

This is what we are dealing with - a regional menace, 'democratic' or not. The people of Gaza are facing complete annihilation. This is genocide. The death toll in Gaza already exceeds that of the purported number of deaths caused by Hamas's actions. Many hundreds of children have been killed. Even before this latest round of blood letting, more Palestinian children had been killed in a single year than ever before. Half of Gaza's 2.3 million people are children.

The Zionist entity are deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure, including a university, schools, high-rise residential blocks, hospitals and places of worship.

They are using white phosphorus munitions. This war crime, unlike their lies of decapitated babies, is true and has been confirmed by the UN. Palestinians in the West Bank are also being slaughtered. In July, the IDF carried out a murderous bombing of the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank. A f**king refugee camp.

What the Zionists' are perpetrating is absolutely evil. These are crimes against humanity. And this has as been going on for 75 years. The state calling itself 'Israel' is in violation of more UN resolutions than all other nations put together. It is an an apartheid state ruled by nazis.

Call this an 'anti-Semitic' 'rant' if you want, but how any human being can attempt to draw any sort of moral equivalence between this wealthy Western-backed occupying colonialist regime with fighter jets, attack helicopters, gun boats, advanced drones, submarines, tanks, GPS guided projectiles, incendiary munitions, long range ballistic missiles and nuclear warheads, and its impoverished, dispossessed victims in Palestine, trying, largely impotently, to resist using, until recently, only crude homemade rockets and throwing stones, simply defies belief.

In fact, it's a truly despicable position to take.

You go into a lot of detail about the horrible situation currently going on in Gaza. And I like you abhor the loss of life of innocent people particularly children. But it has to be said that at one point on the morning of October 7 there was peace and quiet and even music in the air in the region. But then the rockets started flying and the machine guns started firing. If those things had not happened we would not be having this conversation right now.