His contract is up soon, It's obvious it will not be renewed. I don't get the bleating about 'it's time for him to go', his time is up already it's just a matter of financial timing. The next manager will have the 2024 nations league group stage.
There's nothing new with the Kenny post match interview, it's the same as it ever was, he blushes, stutters and panics, it's a live car crash, he has a (turbo charged) panic disorder plain and simple, it's the complete reverse after a (rare) win, then he's riding the high horse of confidence and assurance. It should be noted that he was a failure as u21 coach, Ireland failed to qualify for those finals.
This campaign it's not about the players available to him, it's more that he consistently fails to structure the team to best effect, this evening was doomed (as with many other games) with having so many free corridors through the whole width of midfield and us depending on a bit of old fashioned chaos with set pieces. Even the Dutch went 442 when it suited their game. With us, 4231 or 451 is infinitely more suited than sticking with a dogma of attacking formation against technically proficient teams who can suss it all out by half time.
Looking back at the 2 goals we conceded Duffys positioning is truly awful, the first one in particular is criminal, if you're going to be a pressing team like we clearly were in the first half you can't be dropping that deep, it's just far too easy to exploit by any half decent team....
Irish by birth ,Harps by the grace of god.
It was tough to watch that post match interview, he's an emotional chap that almost cares too much. Any progress that was made plateaued, for quite a while Id have argued that you could see patterns of play developing and that with time a complete performance would happen. It seems that as we progressed in one area eg ball out from the back while countering a high press, we went backwards in other areas like not coughing up too many goals. To a fault he sticks with players he has selected and is slow to change things, its an area he could improve I think - almost having less absolute faith in his system and backing players to come good. Didnt help himself with so openly setting targets eg next campaign is when to be judged - he didnt change the rhetoric from early squad development to when a squad was or should have beeded in. All that said, he got no luck at all from pandemics to injuries. Maybe he was too eager to take on the senior job from McCarthy when all that rescheduling happened early on and caused overlap. Just for the opportunity to Delaney bash, it is still part of his grubby dealings and manipulation with the whole appointing 2 people to the same job and when SK goes its then end of those lingering dealings.Originally Posted by sbgawa
So where to now? Big Sam with his LoI experience ;p . Potter wouldnt take an international job yet. What about an old warhorse like Santos? Someone out of left field like Carvahal.....get som Irish billionaire to make it worthJoachim Low's time? Most of the usuals are now in jobs, Dyche, Rogers etc. We'll probably end up with Barraclough
He could have a nice less intense job, 10 minutes drive from home as a DoF at Oriel Park!! Get back to some roots, rebuild confidence, have a remit to (re)build an entire club. Doesnt have to be involved in day to day fooball working with a manager he knows well and may be willing to work with a DoF. Well we can hope!!
Last edited by Nesta99; 11/09/2023 at 1:26 AM.
This is the reason why teams keep scoring against us just after half time. We surprise them in the first half because they don't know what to expect. During the halftime break the other team goes into their dressing room and discusses what we are up to. They sus us out and make the necessary changes to exploit our weaknesses and then they lay siege to us early in the second half. Kenny eventually makes a change to counter, but only after the other team scores first. What did he say in the interview last night, something about how we just needed to "ride out" the Dutch attacks after half time? No Stephen, the game had changed.
The amount of times that we start well, only for the other team to make some adjustment that puts them on top, is far greater than the other way round.
Kenny is fairly consistently outmanaged, or out-tacticed, at this level.
Chief culpability for the first goal lies with Matt Doherty, who inexplicably headed the ball straight to a Dutch player in a dangerous position, under little pressure. There was no discernible defensive line in the subsequent breakdown of play, because Nathan Collins was then out of position (understandably getting ready to join our counterattack) and he was drawn to the ball, while Shane Duffy naturally dropped off. John Egan and James McClean were also not aligned - it was a total breakdown and happened so fast. While Duffy's position played Dumfries onside for the second Dutch goal, we also failed to deal with that obvious overload on our left, but Duffy still needed to deal better with Weghorst for the cross. Other than that, I thought the defence was actually quite solid and dealt with the Dutch pace well, with Duffy making few crucial tackles in the box late on as we chased the game. There were a few decent interceptions, blocks and timely clearances from all three CBs, though going forward the distribution of both Collins and Egan left a lot to be desired, with a lot of wasted long balls into the channels to nobody.
According to the stats, both teams had nine shots during the game - Ireland had one on target, the Dutch had five. Ultimately, that was the difference between the two teams. Ireland's press alone created enough opportunities to win the game and players of greater quality take those, no question. Instead, our attacking play in possession was laboured, predictable and ultimately let down by individual decision-making. I also think we are badly missing a specialist set-piece taker. For someone who ships a lot of unwarranted abuse about his crossing etc, James McClean's deliveries were not bad, but we haven't had a free kick and corner taker of genuine quality since Robbie Brady and, to a lesser degree, Conor Hourihane. We have been unable to capitalise on set-pieces as well as we have in the past.
Towards the end of the game, when the formation was changed to 4-3-3, Duffy was urging Doherty to get forward, but he didn't seem to do so. At one point he took up a central position instead of pushing high and wide, but he was subsequently taken off so maybe he didn't have the legs (calling into question the decision to start him).
A final observation: I was struck by the cynicism and overt physicality from the likes of Tchouameni, Upamecano, Griezmann, De Jong and Van Dijk during this window. They were slide-tackling, nudging into the back, smashing into players, holding onto jerseys and generally getting in our faces. A reminder that top quality players are not beyond using the Dark Arts to gain an advantage. I wonder did we do it enough ourselves??
End Apartheid Now! One Team in Ireland!
Herr Flick ~ ~ Maybe things are that bad ! ! !
Yep, that header infield by Doherty was just so careless. Duffy was too deep but that was only a secondary error. And it’s not the first time a carelessly conceded interception by Doherty has cost us recently. I can’t remember, was it against Latvia he did something similar in exactly the same part of the pitch?
Kenny’s inability to react to changing circumstances is his fatal flaw imho. I’m no expert but when I saw the Dutch shift the whole team forward into our half after HT I thought we needed the threat of pace to keep them honest. Connolly, Armstrong, Festy… But even if that wasn’t the solution, there was a problem that needed fixing and SK did nothing.
Didi Hamann’s comments that were circulated on social media were bang on, the regularity in which we let good positions deteriorate is a sign of a weak team.
The annoying thing is that there were good individual performances. In fact almost everyone played well to a degree for large parts of the game. Ogbene and Idah’s decision making was poor though and I’m just not sure Idah’s instincts are up the scratch.
But I really like these lads. They’re honest, quite talented in some positions but being let down by management’s inability to adapt to changing circumstances. I don’t think we’re as bad as the results make out.
Last edited by Stuttgart88; 11/09/2023 at 8:44 AM.
What happens now
Do the fai call an emergency board meeting and sack him?
Or stay silent for the moment because they are hopeless?
I'm not sure you can say chief culpability rests with Doherty. OK, he probably should have let the ball go to the winger and close him down from there; instead he stretched and couldn't get any real control on where he was putting it.
But that gave the Dutch the ball ten yards inside their own half. They'd had possession anyway so we weren't regrouping. They find a wonderful through ball, but our entire centre is all over the place to allow the gaps the pass found. That's the bigger issue for me on it. Cullen doesn't get close to the midfield player to prevent the pass, Duffy is playing the Dutch guy on, McClean is pointing at him having lost him, but Egan already has a lad to cover and can't get on both. It looks like a catalogue of errors there.
I think it's hard to say that after games against sides like France and Holland when we're missing so many players in one position. But I feel there's something in that alright. So when the comment comes out "What would another manager be doing differently?", I think there has to be scope that he could actually improve us a fair bit. Maybe it's just that we have to have something to hope for, so that may as well be it!
I'd be interested to see a list of teams who have a worse competitive international record then us since Stephen took over. I fear it will tell a tale
Here we go.
Obviously the Nations League skews that - we're getting harder opposition than, say, the Faroes, who are ranked ahead of us by being in League D twice (and winning it once). Our goal difference is way out of synch with those around us for that reason - and, as we know, we've generally been quite competitive in our games. France are the only side to beat us by more than one goal in all this lot.Code:Country P W D L F A GD Pts Denmark 28 20 2 6 59 20 39 62 Scotland 27 19 4 4 45 17 28 61 Netherlands 26 18 5 3 62 23 39 59 Portugal 25 17 4 4 55 13 42 55 Belgium 24 17 4 3 60 21 39 55 France 25 16 6 3 46 15 31 54 England 27 15 7 5 66 19 47 52 Turkey 27 14 8 5 59 35 24 50 Serbia 25 14 7 4 49 25 24 49 Hungary 26 14 6 6 41 23 18 48 Spain 23 14 5 4 46 16 30 47 Slovenia 28 13 8 7 40 29 11 47 Croatia 25 14 4 7 46 27 19 46 Greece 25 13 7 5 34 16 18 46 Switzerland 25 12 8 5 44 24 20 44 Germany 22 12 7 3 57 26 31 43 Italy 23 11 10 2 32 14 18 43 Finland 26 13 4 9 36 25 11 43 Austria 26 13 4 9 43 36 7 43 Norway 26 12 6 8 39 29 10 42 Albania 25 12 5 8 32 25 7 41 Romania 27 11 8 8 34 29 5 41 Poland 27 12 4 11 48 37 11 40 Montenegro 27 11 7 9 35 28 7 40 Israel 25 11 7 7 44 41 3 40 Luxembourg 25 12 4 9 31 37 -6 40 North Macedonia 26 10 8 8 44 38 6 38 Czech Republic 24 11 5 8 35 29 6 38 Wales 24 10 6 8 31 28 3 36 Ukraine 24 9 9 6 31 30 1 36 Slovakia 27 9 8 10 32 28 4 35 Georgia 24 9 7 8 32 32 0 34 Armenia 26 9 6 11 30 49 -19 33 Kazakhstan 26 9 5 12 27 40 -13 32 Russia 16 9 3 4 28 18 10 30 Latvia 26 7 8 11 34 34 0 29 Sweden 24 9 1 14 34 35 -1 28 Bosnia and Herz 25 6 8 11 25 39 -14 26 Faroe Islands 27 6 7 14 25 48 -23 25 Kosovo 25 5 8 12 25 35 -10 23 Moldova 27 6 5 16 21 52 -31 23 Ireland 25 5 7 13 25 26 -1 22 Bulgaria 25 4 9 12 21 37 -16 21 Estonia 22 5 5 12 26 43 -17 20 Belarus 25 5 5 15 24 49 -25 20 Malta 24 5 5 14 23 49 -26 20 Northern Irl 26 4 7 15 21 36 -15 19 Azerbaijan 24 4 6 14 16 37 -21 18 Andorra 27 4 6 17 18 49 -31 18 Iceland 25 3 7 15 30 50 -20 16 Lithuania 25 3 5 17 15 50 -35 14 Cyprus 26 3 5 18 12 54 -42 14 Gibraltar 25 2 3 20 10 79 -69 9 Liechtenstein 25 1 3 21 7 63 -56 6 San Marino 24 0 2 22 1 79 -78 2
Or you could take out the Nations League and look at just Euro/World Cup qualifiers, because that's more balanced overall. It lifts us from 42nd to 37th. I honestly thought it'd have done more for us than that. Of course, we've been unlucky in getting France as a second seed, and we've played them twice in our five group games to date here. But there's still a weird gap between Luxembourg (19 points) and Bosnia (13), so even if we win both our games next month, we won't be climbing more than two places.
Code:Country P W D L F A GD Pts Denmark 16 13 1 2 42 8 34 40 England 15 12 3 0 55 5 50 39 Scotland 15 12 2 1 29 8 21 38 France 13 10 3 0 29 3 26 33 Netherlands 14 10 2 2 41 13 28 32 Portugal 13 10 2 1 32 6 26 32 Turkey 15 9 4 2 35 22 13 31 Belgium 12 9 3 0 33 7 26 30 Croatia 13 9 3 1 29 5 24 30 Serbia 13 9 3 1 27 13 14 30 Switzerland 13 8 5 0 29 7 22 29 Albania 15 9 1 5 20 15 5 28 Germany 10 9 0 1 36 4 32 27 Hungary 14 8 3 3 26 14 12 27 Slovenia 16 8 3 5 26 18 8 27 Poland 15 8 2 5 36 19 17 26 Austria 14 8 2 4 28 20 8 26 Romania 15 7 5 3 20 12 8 26 Spain 11 8 1 2 25 8 17 25 Slovakia 15 6 6 3 22 12 10 24 Israel 15 7 3 5 29 28 1 24 Finland 14 7 2 5 21 14 7 23 Russia 10 7 1 2 19 6 13 22 Czech Republic 12 6 4 2 21 11 10 22 North Macedonia 14 6 4 4 28 23 5 22 Norway 14 6 4 4 20 15 5 22 Sweden 12 7 0 5 22 11 11 21 Italy 11 5 5 1 17 5 12 20 Montenegro 15 5 5 5 19 20 -1 20 Greece 13 5 4 4 18 13 5 19 Ukraine 12 4 7 1 16 13 3 19 Wales 12 5 4 3 18 16 2 19 Armenia 14 5 4 5 17 26 -9 19 Luxembourg 13 6 1 6 15 25 -10 19 Kazakhstan 14 4 3 7 14 25 -11 15 Bosnia and Herz 13 3 4 6 14 20 -6 13 Ireland 13 3 3 7 16 15 1 12 Northern Irl 14 3 3 8 10 15 -5 12 Iceland 15 3 3 9 21 27 -6 12 Georgia 12 3 2 7 10 23 -13 11 Bulgaria 13 2 4 7 9 22 -13 10 Latvia 14 2 3 9 14 25 -11 9 Kosovo 13 1 6 6 10 21 -11 9 Moldova 15 2 3 10 10 35 -25 9 Andorra 15 2 2 11 11 31 -20 8 Belarus 13 2 1 10 11 34 -23 7 Estonia 12 1 2 9 11 32 -21 5 Lithuania 13 1 2 10 8 29 -21 5 Faroe Islands 15 1 2 12 9 33 -24 5 Cyprus 14 1 2 11 6 32 -26 5 Malta 14 1 2 11 10 39 -29 5 Azerbaijan 12 0 2 10 7 29 -22 2 Liechtenstein 15 0 1 14 3 50 -47 1 Gibraltar 15 0 0 15 4 60 -56 0 San Marino 16 0 0 16 1 67 -66 0
Last edited by pineapple stu; 11/09/2023 at 9:47 AM.
I think the nail has been hit on the head a few times here. It's been an issue throughout his career and it's cruelly exposed at international level, Kenny hates changing the starting shape and team and leaves it too late to make adjustments. They play such a high tempo and it's great to a point, but in both games they were flogged at half time and that contributes to the slow restarts. They get a bit of a second wind then, but by 55 minutes there's always two or three dead on their feet, yet he waits and waits to change it. Similarly, everyone spotted the Dutch change in shape at half time. Immediately they were causing problems and retaining the ball much more comfortably, but it wasn't until they scored that we made the adjustment. Too little too late. I have some admiration for throwing on so many attacking players and trying to go for it, but it was also clear that Idah and Ogbene were wrecked, so it might have been more effective to just replace them.
I do still have some sympathy for Kenny, I've no doubt the majority of the players are still playing for him. He's brought through a lot of players. I know there's some criticism that the style hasn't changed that much, but I think it really has, there was some lovely passing in good areas and we created good overlaps etc. I don't think we could have imagined having more possession and more passes completed (https://www.uefa.com/european-qualif...ds/statistics/) against the Dutch under any of the recent managers. More attempts, more attacks, more corners, I suppose that's where the loss of Ferguson is so badly felt, for all the work of Idah and Ogbene (and to be fair the caused a few nightmares for the Dutch) the final touch and finish just wasn't at the top level needed to capitalise.
Sadly, it's another loss though, and Hamman has a point that conspiring to lose from good positions and good starts is a sign of a weakness in the team. That's the main issue Kenny hasn't resolved, and he's run out of rope now. I think we'd all be shocked if he's kept on beyond the end of the qualifiers (he won't walk so assume he'll be kept on for financial reasons). Would a convincing win against Greece at home change anything? Seven points from the last three games? It might, but it's hard to imagine it happening, and it's hard to see Kenny winning the majority back over regardless. He got great support, he made some much needed improvements, the back room team, match prep etc. all seems to be handled very well, but he hasn't got the all important results. I still suspect that the next manager will benefit hugely from the work Kenny has done. Who that is will be crucial, they need to have the same belief Kenny has in the players, but bring something a bit more clinical in seeing games out and responding to issues. Just having a bit more luck with injuries and player availability might go a long way.
The intensity of the atmosphere was incredible in the early stages too, but once the Dutch scored, you could almost feel the whole crowd thinking "here we go again", the belief in Kenny was clearly gone. Unlike what we've seen in the past with the crowd really rallying, I thought it was oddly quiet for long spells in the second half, even when we were causing them problems. Possibly the most damning indictment of them all.
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Tallaght Stadium Regular
That's brill
Thanks for that
Some really interesting stats. The goal difference really does show that we've been competitive, without managing to convert that to positive results. But, more interesting I suppose, is are there really that many teams doing better that we wouldn't expect to be? While the squad is getting stronger, I don't think there's too much argument that the first two years under Kenny was possibly the weakest squad we've ever had, a mix of lads who were past it, journeymen and kids. At least now those kids are getting experience, they're starting to play more for their clubs and they're playing at better levels for the most part. I'd expect to see more of the narrow defeats concerted to positive results, even in Kenny stays on, due to that improvement in the squad. The goal difference is the indicator that a significant improvement is probably not too far off.
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Tallaght Stadium Regular
The goal difference thing is positive alright - albeit that, say, France could/should have scored more last week, or Serbia were far superior to us than the 4-3 aggregate scoreline suggests, or Portugal weren't too worried about our game in Dublin because they had a huge game against Serbia coming up. But certainly we seem to defend reasonably well in those sort of games and yeah, with a decent forward (which we now might have) you could see us turn around some games. If we had Ferguson last night and had gone 2-0 up, say, would the Dutch have had an extra gear to still win? Maybe, but even then putting it up to the Dutch isn't a bad performance mostentimes. And we'd surely have turned other defeats into draws or even wins.
On teams that are maybe exceeding expectations - Scotland jump out. 11 competitive wins in a row is phenomenal. Albania, Slovenia, Montenegro and Luxembourg are well ahead of us too - they're small countries. I think their combined population is about the same as ours. Norway are struggling - they're a different team when Haaland is out, the same way we may well now be a different team without Ferguson. Greece - who I think we generally agree outplayed us in Athens - haven't got a great record. And that huge gap just above us is a worry too; we've work to do just to catch up to the lower end of the middle.
There's nobody below us you'd be surprised by - maybe Bulgaria, but we saw in the Nations League when we played them that they've been in decline for years now. A very poor side.
Might be a job going in Ballybofey soon, would be a real test of his abilities
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I stand by my opinion from last couple of weeks that we no longer have the tools for a 3-5-2. We don't have the fit and/or capable wing backs for that position and with Duffy at the centre of it we also have an issue, compounded with Egan being shorn of confidence in a big way.
The Dutch identified this. Overloaded our left at half time. Scored via that side, exposing McClean, Egan and Duffy in the process. It was coming for the 10 minutes and I turned to the person beside me and asked is Kenny waiting for the Dutch to score before fixing this left hand side. He subbed McClean off a few minutes after the goal and Egan 10 minutes after that.
I'll give him a bye on the team selection if he had acted during the game when he should have but he didn't. And you can say we don't have the players in certain positions but we had Omobamidele and O'Shea on the bench - this is precisely where we had options and good options if we wanted to change it up. Two Premiership defenders, both fast and good on the ball, not incredibly powerful lads but would have coped better with Malen and Dumfries and nothing was done.
I thought Kenny got the midfield bang on - Browne was good until he tired, Knight was excellent, Cullen was improved on recent games - and he had little option up top but Idah and Ogbene.
But, I can't help but feeling he botched the selection and formation - which I would forgive - but he compounded it by not responding to Ronald Koeman saying at half time "these lads have a League Two left back and a defender beside him who is too rattled to control a ball or pass it forward".
And I thought Kenny knew that Manning wasn't the answer but he still put him in for McClean (those crosses, by the way, absolutely torturous watching those float into the keeper from Manning). I think he thinks McGrath is better than he is too and that was proved out when he came in. And he relied on this pairing to chase the game after we went down, whilst Omobamidele and O'Shea watched on.
Had to turn the post match interview off it was so painful to watch. You can clearly see he is hurting and becomes incoherent. I feel for him but the tide has turned even the most loyal of his LOI diehards have to see that the time has come for change.
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