QuoteI was seeking that clarification from yourself. Are there recreational clubs expressing an interest in obtaining an elite licence?Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Why would you think I was going that?
I was seeking that clarification from yourself. Are there recreational clubs expressing an interest in obtaining an elite licence?
https://foot.ie/forums/117-Kerry-FC
A Championship: 4 years - 8 first teams - 0 financially ruined. First Division '14: 7 first teams.
Opportunity lost for new clubs/regions to join the LoI family.
Kerry this season had a choice of whether to go with their u19s and a couple of other Kerry players around the league to add experience, which they did, or to pay bigger wages and bring in journeymen to bolster the team and make them somewhat competitive, which is kind of the approach Cabo took.
The one major difference between Cabo and Kerry is that Cabo were representing an area in which League of Ireland clubs already existed and they actually weren't even playing their home games in Cabinteely!
Other than on the pitch I wouldn't say Kerry are struggling at all - yes their crowds have fallen off from the original novelty - but having been there a few times it's a lot more families and kids who don't necessarily care as much about challenging for promotion but are just going for a nice match day experience - and to their credit it is that.
I brought my niece and nephew from Castleisland (about 15k from Tralee) to the game against Finn Harps when I was down there but they've also been to games against Treaty and Wexford as well as coming to the Galway United game and they've loved the experience even though Kerry lost every match - getting a photo with the keeper after losing 0-6 to Wexford did make me laugh!
The three teams in Galway fiasco completely goes against your point. Salthill & Mervue were established Galway clubs, the two best senior clubs in the city at the time but once they earned League of Ireland status there was absolutely no support behind them. When Galway United dropped out of the league in 2012 GUFC fans didn't suddenly start going along to matches of the other clubls. Salthill rebranded themselves as 'SD Galway' played in maroon and moved games to Terryland Park. They were obviously aware that the Salthill Devon name wasn't going to attract sufficient support for League of Ireland levels.
This is exactly the point others have made if Castlebar Celtic were to join the league instead of Mayo FC. People wouldn't travel the 20k from Westport to support Castlebar because there is a big rivalry between the towns but Mayo FC represents the county and you'd hope they'll draw support and all players from Belmullet down to Ballinrobe.
I phoned the speaking clock to hear a voice speak, it said - "At the tone you will be very much alone"
In fairness, Stradbrook is as near as damnit to Cabinteely. It's certainly nearer to Cabinteely than, say, Longford or Wexford's grounds are to their towns, and the distance in between isn't open countryside with nobody there. I don't think you can on the one hand criticise Cabo for representing an area where LoI clubs already existed (South Dublin) and also for not playing in Cabinteely (which wasn't represented in the LoI).
Cabo also started off as a good crowd of family and kids who were going for a matchday experience and weren't all that worried about promotion.
The three teams in Galway is very relevant to the current broken setup though - the "put your hands up" format allowed it to happen. Adding a third tier to the LoI again is just an extension of the current broken format, not a revolutionary new idea that's going to change things.
What are your issues with what's happened at Kerry FC though? I could be wrong but assume you haven't been down to it?
You support a club where gate receipts are pretty much irrelevant and for the moment that appears to be the case at Kerry. Obviously it is slightly different as it is private investment and like all clubs when the investor decides to pull away - what then?
I think your reservations about this "franchise" are ill-founded. Do you think Tralee Dynamos or Killarney Celtic should have joined instead?
I'm all for having proper pyramid structures and teams get promoted on merit but how many years away is that? The Leinster Senior League is the only properly structured league in the country in any way suitable to be a feeder league. The MSL isn't fit yet as it's just a Cork league, there is no CSL or USL. It will take years for those to happen - so should we just stick with the 19 teams we had last year?
What are your thoughts on Treaty United btw?
I phoned the speaking clock to hear a voice speak, it said - "At the tone you will be very much alone"
I mean, this is really the core of my point, and it's frustrating seeing us continue on a tried and tested (and failed) route while this bit stagnates. And I acknowledge a pyramid is years away for various unfortunate reasons.
I've nothing against Kerry (in fact, have a soft spot for them as I'm originally from there) but they've already been hamstrung by this system in the same way that Cabo in particular were before them. The similarities are too close to avoid pointing out.
And the league gets hamstrung then. The First Division has suffered too long for having really uncompetitive teams in it (Kilkenny, Athlone, Monaghan, St Francis, etc, etc), and those clubs also suffer by not being able to drop to a competitive level and rebuild on and off the pitch. UCD are crap in the Premier this year and doing the league and ourselves no good really, but at least we'll be competitive next season again.
Other than that, my points are general arguments against such points as you've made in your previous post.
To be fair, Cabinteely was a very different admission to the league than Kerry FC. I have been to Kerry during their debut season, and I was at Stradbrook during Cabinteely debut season, and it was an altogether different experience at both.
There was no effort at match day experience with Cabo. They focused solely on the squad and nothing off the pitch. Kerry are going about it the opposite was, building the club and fan experience before wasting money on players.
My first visit to Stradbrook saw a confused bunch of stewards and club staff unsure what to do about a bus load of away fans arriving. One small 50 seater stand closed off with a bit of red and white tape, next to nothing in the away of catering or facilities for supporters, and little effort to dress up a rugby pitch.
Kerry FC were welcoming, loads of stewards dotted around the ground, loads of catering facilities, toilet facilities, and clear enough instructions on where to go, where to park, and how they operate on a match night.
It's small things like that which will ensure they keep at least a decent base of supporters around, and for at least their opening five or six home games saw either over 1,000, or close to it, through the gates.
If Mayo FC can follow a similar example, there's no reason they shouldn't do well too. The only worry is that Tralee is double the size of Castlebar, so Mayo FC really need the buy in of surrounding towns and areas, as a town of 12,000 people could struggle to get regular decent crowds.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
In fairness, the ground thing is a factor of how soon before the start of the season Cabo were elected to the league. I've seen you giving out about Mounthawk Park being not really suitable too - it may be less unsuitable, but it's still a similarity. Made-up clubs shouldn't be dropped into the league at short notice. It's not fair on them above all else.
I think you're being harsh on Cabo in terms of promotion too - when I was there there was a clubhouse and I think things like balloons and stuff; even branded chocolate bars (well, Animal bars with "Cabinteely FC" bar wrappers put on them). It was clear where the shop was (there was a gazebo for it). From the 2015 attendances thread they had 1,420 at their first game against Wexford, and it dropped slowly off after that (down to 500-odd by June), like we're seeing at Kerry. They didn't really waste that much on players (certainly to start with, before Devo arrived); it was mostly internal.
So you'll blindly complain and be frustrated about all new teams joining the LOI until a pyramid is established?
Last edited by Buller; 28/06/2023 at 11:47 AM.
I think it was May or June before we visited Cabo that year, admittedly, so novelty had probably worn off by then, but little effort seemed to be made at that time.
There was even one game we arrived there where the clubhouse wasn't open to any supporters because Blackrock college rugby had some black tie event in there on the same night as a Cabo home game.
I have said Mounthawk needs work, and stand by it, but it's mostly in away areas. It's far from perfect, but they're making a big effort, which was the point I was trying to make.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
Does everyone on this thread have to try argue a point I haven't made?
The only time I’ve drank pints in a gym at a LOI game!!
Irish by birth ,Harps by the grace of god.
You will never have a (genuine) pyramid while you continue to be sidetracked by this "Third Tier" experiment.
Consider it this way. Let us assume that Kerry FC become established as a solid, competitive Senior club.
Let us assume that both Mayo FC and CK United also become established as envisaged. Assume also that six* Senior LOI clubs commit to their Reserve teams joining this Third Tier.
All well and good in itself, but whatever emerges, this league will NOT be a genuine next step of a pyramid, since NONE of the normal features of a pyramid will apply.
Chief amongst these is that each and every team in each division is competing on the same terms. Can you really compare eg (f-t professional) Shamrock Rvrs Reserves with (amateur) Mayo FC?
Similarly, each participant should aspire, in theory at least, to rise up the pyramid via Promotion on the field, to the next level (FD) and ultimately to the PD. Clearly that could not apply to the Senior Reserve teams.
By the same token, any team relegated from the FD should not have to fear for their very existence at the lower level (finances, facilities, sponsorship, ability to attract supporters etc). That is, the step from one level to the next, whethert up or down, should not be so steep as to be insurmountable.
While if any team should fall out of the system, for whatever reason, you might expect there to be candidate clubs available to replace them, at Third Tier level at least. Are there any more Kerrys/Mayos/CKs out there?
The barriers to building a genuine pyramid, from the bottom up, are obvious to everyone - and that's before we get to the Summer/Winter season issue. But even if the correct road to your ultimate destination is incredibly long and difficult to navigate etc, with all sorts of problems along the way, that is no reason to proceed along another road where the going is easier, if it's taking you in entirely the wrong direction instead.
* - Eight clubs (i.e. six reserve teams plus Mayo and CK), is the absolute minimum for any division to work - ideally you'd have at least ten.
Yeah thats the worry - hopefully can draw support from Westport nearby as their name will allow. Two towns only 15 mins from each other.
I'm very excited at the prospect of national underage leagues and senior football being established in Mayo. Raff Cretaro in particular is a great boon for their U15 team.
Great work by all involved getting it off the ground.
I don't think creating a pyramid by somehow reforming provincial leagues + securing funding for nationwide travel, and creating a third tier league, are mutually exclusive.
All other development shouldn't cease until provincial leagues are aligned with LOI.
I totally agree with that and I do agree in part with Pineapple Stu's non-franchise approach but there is so much politics involved in Irish football it will seriously take years to sort this out.
Firstly just to note that CK, Mayo, Klub Kildare and Kerry have firstly joined the National Academy Leagues. Cabo and Kildare County previously went straight in to senior football (along with Cabo entering their academy sides).
I certainly think for academies I would support this approach of establishing as many academy clubs geographically around the country. Now not all of these may want to enter Senior LoI but certainly as a means of keeping the best underage players at a relatively local club instead of taking up GAA because their nearest 'elite' football club is 100 miles away is a good thing.
In terms of the pyramid there's an active thread on Cork Junior football. They're saying the Champions Coachford are miles ahead of the rest - I have no idea about the Cork AUL but asked why they wouldn't just join the Munster Senior League, to me that would be the next progressive step but like so much of football in this country they appear happy at being the big fish in a small pond.
Even a simple thing of joining he MSL and Cork AUL, in similar manner to what's happened in the LSL (mainly due to the AUL effectively imploding) will take a number of years due to the politics of it, never mind joining the Limerick, Waterford, Kerry and Tipp Leagues in... Then aligning those to League of Ireland.
It's definitely worth doing but I would be very surprised if within 10 years there's anything like that in place.
I phoned the speaking clock to hear a voice speak, it said - "At the tone you will be very much alone"
Yeah MSL and Cork AUL need to be merged - madness they exist together! People involved in them obviously happy doing their own thing.
Then don't call it the "Third Tier", since that implies third tier of a pyramid.
Except that by moving forward with this proposal, there is a danger that the distraction and diversion of resources etc could make the development/alignment of the provincial leagues with the LOI even harder than it already is.
For example, should Mayo FC get off the ground and become established in this new league, then that would kill whatever tiny chance there is of a club eg in Castlebar, Ballina or Westport aspiring to Senior LOI status at some future date stone dead.
While if Mayo FC were to develop sufficiently to be able to somehow transfer to the LOI, where would that leave the new league they had just left? Remember, there's nothing coming up behind it.
Last edited by EalingGreen; 28/06/2023 at 5:11 PM.
So it's better to have 3 recreational clubs than 1 elite club with the potential to attain professional status?
A proper implementation of the mooted third tier will see Mayo FC promoted to the First Division via a playoff against the 10th placed team in the First Division, should they of course have a First Division licence, meet the qualifying criteria from the third tier and win the playoff.
https://foot.ie/forums/117-Kerry-FC
A Championship: 4 years - 8 first teams - 0 financially ruined. First Division '14: 7 first teams.
Opportunity lost for new clubs/regions to join the LoI family.
No, it's better to have a system which rewards ambitious Junior clubs which aspire to achieving Intermediate status, and ambitious Intermediate clubs which aspire to Senior status, with all the facilities, resources, finances and on-field achievement which each level requires, regardless of where they are located. As happens in just about every other comparable country in Europe.
Besides which there is no good reason why, if one of those three should achieve professional status, the other two cannot continue playing recreational football at the same time. I mean, there are four professional clubs in Dublin, plus UCD, but that doesn't mean there cannot also be hundreds of other clubs in the same locality, playing football of varying standard.
So let us assume an amateur Mayo FC were to finish 6th or 7th in this Third Tier i.e. "best of the rest" behind half a dozen Reserve teams and somehow scrape through a playoff. How do you imagine they would do in the FD? What would they bring to the party?
And what happens to the club which got relegated from the FD? Any half-decent semi-pro FD club which just happened to have had a particularly bad season on the pitch could easily find that a season or two down amongst the stiffs in the Third Tier could bust them. For any pyramid to work, there cannot be nearly so great a gap between the different levels as you would see between this Third Tier and the FD, never mind the PD.
Meanwhile, what do you think should be the criteria in order to obtain a Third Tier licence, never mind a FD one? We know from eg Kerry FC or Cabo that the FAI is famously "flexible" when it comes to stadia etc, and I guess they could extend that to CK Utd or Mayo etc. But what has that lax approach done for off-field standards in domestic football in ROI? No harm to any particular club, but the facilities in the LOI are an embarrassment, as eg Damien Duff has averred.
Of course, NI domestic football is hardly any better in this regard in absolute terms, but when you look at the context within which we have to operate (population, wealth, politics, sectarianism etc), I think it fair to say that stadia and other off-field facilities are relatively better. And there is no doubt that the introduction of a genuine pyramid, with correspondingly higher standards imposed incrementally, has benefitted our game enormously.
By contrast, parachuting a few amateur/youth clubs from here or there into a Third Tier will do very little for the domestic game in ROI in this regard.
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