LOI in Europe 2023

[EalingGreen]

I've seen a lot of VAR in English club football, European games and Internationals. During that time, I've seen interventions which have helped my team and those which have helped the opposition. Some decisions rectify a referee's error - occasionally a blatant one - but others overturn what still seems to have been the correct decision by the ref. A percentage of VAR decisions are technically correct, esp with offside, in that they demonstrate that the striker was on or off, if only by a fraction that no on-pitch official could have been expected to detect.

Aside from offside, handball is the other situation where VAR is most prominent. If you look at this in isolation, the recent controversies have not actually been with the technology itself, which almost always tell you whether contact has occurred and usually whether the ball has struck the hand/arm versus the shoulder/back etc. Rather the controversy derives from the rule and (more so) the guidelines issued to assist in the interpretation of the rule eg was the defender adopting "an unnatural body position" etc?

But if you look at this, and VAR generally, in the round, this too is a consequence of the introduction of VAR. For as long as football has been played, we've always demanded greater "consistency" from our refs, by which is meant certainty. Yet the problem is that you can never have complete consistency/certainty while officiating requires an element of judgement on the ref's part eg did the player really mean to foul his opponent or was it a genuine accident? Or did the defender really mean to handle the ball, or did it just hit him and he couldn't get out of the way?

VAR can tell you if and when contact was made eg boot to shin or ball to arm, but it still cannot get inside a player's head, to determine whether he meant to foul or not. Meaning that in the end, it still boils down to human judgement, only judgement is now exercised by some former referee in a studio, rather than the one on the ground.

And after 5(?) years of VAR, I still do not accept that the standard of decision-making is that much better than before it was introduced, or even if it is, that such a marginal gain is worth it when set against the disruption, controversy and delay which follows its operation.

In fact, I absolutely hate it, and consider that whoever thought it up should be shot with a ball of his own dung (as my dear oul dad would have said).

Here endeth the rant for today.

[TonyD]

I've seen a lot of VAR in English club football, European games and Internationals. During that time, I've seen interventions which have helped my team and those which have helped the opposition. Some decisions rectify a referee's error - occasionally a blatant one - but others overturn what still seems to have been the correct decision by the ref. A percentage of VAR decisions are technically correct, esp with offside, in that they demonstrate that the striker was on or off, if only by a fraction that no on-pitch official could have been expected to detect.

Aside from offside, handball is the other situation where VAR is most prominent. If you look at this in isolation, the recent controversies have not actually been with the technology itself, which almost always tell you whether contact has occurred and usually whether the ball has struck the hand/arm versus the shoulder/back etc. Rather the controversy derives from the rule and (more so) the guidelines issued to assist in the interpretation of the rule eg was the defender adopting "an unnatural body position" etc?

But if you look at this, and VAR generally, in the round, this too is a consequence of the introduction of VAR. For as long as football has been played, we've always demanded greater "consistency" from our refs, by which is meant certainty. Yet the problem is that you can never have complete consistency/certainty while officiating requires an element of judgement on the ref's part eg did the player really mean to foul his opponent or was it a genuine accident? Or did the defender really mean to handle the ball, or did it just hit him and he couldn't get out of the way?

VAR can tell you if and when contact was made eg boot to shin or ball to arm, but it still cannot get inside a player's head, to determine whether he meant to foul or not. Meaning that in the end, it still boils down to human judgement, only judgement is now exercised by some former referee in a studio, rather than the one on the ground.

And after 5(?) years of VAR, I still do not accept that the standard of decision-making is that much better than before it was introduced, or even if it is, that such a marginal gain is worth it when set against the disruption, controversy and delay which follows its operation.

In fact, I absolutely hate it, and consider that whoever thought it up should be shot with a ball of his own dung (as my dear oul dad would have said).

Here endeth the rant for today.

Spot on in my view. The real culprit I think is the endless analysis of the TV pundits. They led the charge for this, demanding “greater consistency”. It just gave them talking points to fill in airtime around the games. Of course now they spend as much time debating VAR decisions as they ever did Refereeing decisions. And are no happier with decisions in general.

One of the few advantages of being an impoverished league such as we are is that, as I said earlier, this is highly unlikely to be pointed on us for the foreseeable future.

[EalingGreen]

Spot on in my view. The real culprit I think is the endless analysis of the TV pundits. They led the charge for this, demanding “greater consistency”. It just gave them talking points to fill in airtime around the games. Of course now they spend as much time debating VAR decisions as they ever did Refereeing decisions. And are no happier with decisions in general.

There's no doubt that TV pundits, and the media generally, get great mileage out of all this VAR controversy, but I also think we should look towards the role of managers. Think back to the days eg of Sir Alex Ferguson, when he, Wenger and Moyes etc were forever blaming referees after the game for a defeat, safe in the knowledge that the referee could never answer back in public. In particular, they would bang on about the need for "consistency" from referees i.e. "Why was that penalty given today, when another one last week wisnae?" - conveniently overlooking that it was a different incident, involving different players and a different referee in a different game! (But apart from that...)

Oh for the days of the late. great Brian Clough, who always declared: "It was a penalty because the referee said it was" - even when the penalty was given against his team! And it is hardly coincidental that his "Don't argue with the ref/Get on with the game" mantra meant that referees universally agreed that Clough teams* were by far the easist and most enjoyable ones to referee. Which when you consider Cloughie used to employ players like (the notoriously physical) Kenny Burns, or the (notoriously argumentative) Martin O'Neill, is all the more remarkable!


* - Not that their sportsmanship made them any less succesful, it might be noted.

[mypost]

Thankfully that day is a long long way in the future. I expect to be pushing up daisies before it arrives (if ever). Absolutely agree with you. I’d rather take my chances on dodgy calls.

You won't be telling us that when you lose the league/cup/relegated, due to said call.

As for it never to be used here, we were told 10 years ago when Platini ran the sport that we would never have technology available at all. Then he got kicked out of football, and now every major competition has it as standard.

The cup final should have VAR available every year, Lansdowne Road is already fully set up to use it, so there's no excuse not to. As seen during the past couple of weeks, Tallaght is as well. So if the will is there, we can keep up with leagues in other countries or if it's not there, we can fall further behind them.

[mypost]

Spot on in my view. The real culprit I think is the endless analysis of the TV pundits. They led the charge for this, demanding “greater consistency”. It just gave them talking points to fill in airtime around the games. Of course now they spend as much time debating VAR decisions as they ever did Refereeing decisions. And are no happier with decisions in general.

One of the few advantages of being an impoverished league such as we are is that, as I said earlier, this is highly unlikely to be pointed on us for the foreseeable future.

Cawley is one of the many pundits on TV to tell us how much he hates VAR. When analysing one of our live LOI games this season, he complained that a goal that stood should not have been given, as it may have been a tight offside call, telling the viewers that we don't want VAR. 10 seconds later, he berates the officials for rejecting a penalty appeal by the opposition.

That's what happens when you don't have VAR. Wrong decisions happen in almost every single game, and it's just not good enough that with everything at stake, that nothing can be done to make sure the major decisions are correct.

[TonyD]

Cawley is one of the many pundits on TV to tell us how much he hates VAR. When analysing one of our live LOI games this season, he complained that a goal that stood should not have been given, as it may have been a tight offside call, telling the viewers that we don't want VAR. 10 seconds later, he berates the officials for rejecting a penalty appeal by the opposition.

That's what happens when you don't have VAR. Wrong decisions happen in almost every single game, and it's just not good enough that with everything at stake, that nothing can be done to make sure the major decisions are correct.

But there are still plenty of controversial calls made by VAR, so it’s never going to be perfect. I still maintain I’d rather take my chances as it is now.

[Dermobohs]

Everyone says that, and then everyone goes straight back. VAR is essential in football, it is in use in over 100 national competitions, and fans still go to watch them.

Results pay the bills, and it's an outrage that a team's entire season can be destroyed, because the ref didn't have the chance to see what he needs to see, to correct a clearly wrong decision. Unfortunately that's still the case in this league.

No no, you’re not getting me, I me I and I, am not attending any game featuring that ****e.
It’s a personal abhorrence of eliminating human error . Sport, FOR ME, has to be based on spontaneity and a flow to a game. That’s it.

[ontheotherhand]

You won't be telling us that when you lose the league/cup/relegated, due to said call.

This is a League of Ireland forum........

[joey B]

Potentially Club Brugge for Dundalk and FC Basel for Derry if they get through their next round,tough draws ….

[pineapple stu]

You really do hit a wall in the third round alright. Very hard to go further than that - and of course there's still one more tie to win to get into the groups

Winners of Dinamo Tbilisi/Hamrun Spartans for Rovers if they can beat Ferencvaros (which seems unlikely). LoI has never played Georgian opposition before.

[cláirseach]

Well not since independence. They have pre-91. Would be some trip. Tbilisi looks great.

[pineapple stu]

Oh you're right - Waterford v Dinamo Tbilisi in 1980 alright.

Was in Georgia last year; can't recommend the place highly enough. Tbilisi is great, food and wine is lovely, and the countryside is jaw-dropping.

Alas, hard to see Rovers getting there this year, but you never know.

[ger121]

Rovers very unlucky that one of the highest seeds gets dumped out of CL qualifiers and they are drawn to face them. The 2nd round tie is way harder than the 3rd round potential opponents. Just shows you the importance of winning your 1sr round match in CL if you are seeded.

[ontheotherhand]

Rovers very unlucky that one of the highest seeds gets dumped out of CL qualifiers and they are drawn to face them. The 2nd round tie is way harder than the 3rd round potential opponents. Just shows you the importance of winning your 1sr round match in CL if you are seeded.

We made out own bad luck to be fair. But yeah it's a proper kick in the face. And they'll have a new manager bounce as well! What a month.

[pineapple stu]

Swings and roundabouts to an extent - the last time Rovers got knocked out in the first round of the CL, they got one of the two byes at this stage.

[mypost]

No no, you’re not getting me, I me I and I, am not attending any game featuring that ****e.
It’s a personal abhorrence of eliminating human error . Sport, FOR ME, has to be based on spontaneity and a flow to a game. That’s it.

Spontaneity doesn't score a goal or get results. Decisions do, therefore the decisions must be correct, and it can't be denied that there is a better chance of them correct when VAR is available. Diving to win penalties and wrong offside calls have been all but eliminated in the competitions with it. In the LOI though, it hasn't been. 7,000 went to our European game in Tallaght with it. Lansdowne Road is sold out for Ireland games with it. So people will go, as success is more important to them than spontaneity.

This is a League of Ireland forum........

This thread is about the LOI in Europe, where VAR is, (or was in Rovers case) available, of which the benefits of using it were seen for the first time ever, for a LOI club.

[ontheotherhand]

Spontaneity doesn't score a goal or get results. Decisions do, therefore the decisions must be correct, and it can't be denied that there is a better chance of them correct when VAR is available. Diving to win penalties and wrong offside calls have been all but eliminated in the competitions with it. In the LOI though, it hasn't been. 7,000 went to our European game in Tallaght with it. Lansdowne Road is sold out for Ireland games with it. So people will go, as success is more important to them than spontaneity.



This thread is about the LOI in Europe, where VAR is, (or was in Rovers case) available, of which the benefits of using it were seen for the first time ever, for a LOI club.

You're telling LoI fans they will be so upset by a bad decision someday that they will want VAR as if we haven't all already had those bad decisions.

[Hitman]

I for one would love to see controversy completely removed from our game by VAR decisions based on footage from a single Pixellot camera.

[ontheotherhand]

I for one would love to see controversy completely removed from our game by VAR decisions based on footage from a single Pixellot camera.

"it certainly looks like his hand makes contact with the ball, or possibly the bald referee"

[thebronze14]

Well not since independence. They have pre-91. Would be some trip. Tbilisi looks great.

Been there 3 times with Ireland...it's class! I would take seeing Harps play Ballinamallard in Europe or Elgin in the Tunnocks Wafer Cup in my lifetime tbh!!