LOI in Europe 2023

[joey B]

Indo article from this morning on Shamrock Rovers in Europe aswell



Daniel McDonnell
Today at 07:44
The looming presence of a historic World Cup in Australia has allowed Shamrock Rovers’ Champions League failure to slip under the radar, the cries for more exposure for League of Ireland exploits in Europe dying down when there’s a result you would like to go away.
There are mitigating factors that Rovers can point to in the attempt to explain a meek exit at the hands of Breidablik, a part-time Icelandic opponent from a league that is ranked lower in the UEFA charts.

Stephen Bradley would have expected his speedy wing backs Trevor Clarke and Neil Farrugia to be a big part of his European plans and the loss of Jack Byrne for the decider after he was clearly struggling in the first leg speaks for itself as a setback given his importance.

But Rovers have set standards for themselves as domestic champions and it arguably does them a disservice to apply kid-glove treatment to disappointments. At this stage of their development, they should be hitting a higher bar in this sphere.

Breidablik were technically sharp and clever in their movements – they are better than the unflattering description of their status - and no Irish club can afford to be complacent against teams from a country where they have really invested in development.

Yet there is something odd about the fact that Rovers, an Irish force that is developing a reputation for its work at academy level, look so old as a first team entity when placed against European peers. In Iceland last night, the youngest member of their starting team was 24-year-old Markus Poom, who was also the only winter arrival in the XI. The average age was 29.2.


Bradley’s dressing room is full of multiple league winners and they are still ahead in the race to emulate the four-in-a-row side of the 1980s.

But the number of points they have dropped this season – 8 draws and 4 defeats in 25 league games – should have them playing catch-up.

Across the 2022 campaign as a whole, the Hoops drew 7 games and lost 5. They conceded 22 goals across a 36-game league season and have already shipped that tally at the 25-game mark this time around.

Nobody has been good enough to punish that.

In reality, despite the attempts to freshen up their squad, Rovers remain reliant on the same faces and haven’t evolved.

Admittedly, they have tried to bring in prospects in the right age bracket but those individuals are leaving other LOI clubs for League One when previously they might have gone to Rovers as their next step.


The likes of Liam Scales, Andy Lyons and Danny Mandroiu came to Tallaght, improved and then left and they’ve not sourced replacements with the same upward trajectory.

There is a danger of slipping into kneejerk reaction mode in the immediate aftermath of a let-down.

Indeed, in his early days at Rovers, Bradley was written off prematurely on a number of occasions, including by his own supporters. His achievements shouldn’t be taken for granted; after a dysfunctional period he has been the central figure in the Hoops becoming serial winners again.

However, a critical assessment of their European performances is necessary if this group are to be considered an all-time great by LOI standards.

It’s possible that the team that broke through in the abridged 2020 campaign was Rovers’ best side of this era. They won 15 out of 18 games in the league and drew the other three with Jack Byrne and Aaron McEneff starring and doing well enough to earn moves further afield. Indeed in 2019, a two-legged victory over Norwegian side Brann highlighted their potential. That was an underrated result.


Since becoming champions, however, Rovers haven’t beaten a decent side over two legs. Teuta Durres (Albania), Hibernians (Malta) and Shkupi (Macedonia) are the only teams they’ve got the better of across 180 minutes and all of those opponents were in pre-season.

The counterpoint to that is that Rovers produced exceptional 90-minute displays against Slovan Bratislava (2021) and Ludogorets (2022) and they acquitted themselves well in the Conference League group games in Tallaght last year.

On the road, though, their record is mediocre, looking poor defensively even when they play three centre halves with two holding midfielders. Conceding four to Flora Tallinn two years ago was a scarring experience and Bradley’s charges now play more conservatively without being harder to break down.

The backlash from Breidablik will hurt this group and they could still go on a run through the Conference League qualifiers against other champions that have fallen by the wayside but advancing through three ties is a big ask.

It is deluded to expect that an Irish team will play group stage football every year, especially as European qualifiers are cup football where strange things can happen, yet it’s still jarring for Rovers that opponents from Estonia and Iceland are delivering crushing blows when they do have the resources to compete with them.


They reached the top of the Irish ladder at the right time, with changes to the structures of the competition opening a backdoor route that wasn’t available to the other dominant LOI sides of the 21st century.

Success at home could still make this an extremely memorable year for those of a Rovers persuasion and their European campaign isn’t over either.

The niggling feeling, though, is that this deflating reverse will add an asterisk to their legacy

[pineapple stu]

Sounds like Dan's been reading this thread

[Straightstory]

That's an intelligent and observant piece by McDonnell. Respect for what Bradley has done at Rovers, but he's been there a while and probably time to get someone new in to manage (the Republic of) Ireland's biggest club - which, in terms of success, infrastructure, and profile, they most certainly are.

[texidub]

Shamrock Rovers (and the league) needs another Shamrock Rovers. Or two. Another SRFC-type club in terms of money, long-term security, youth prospects etc. That competition will drive standards higher with positive knock on effects all round in Europe. That would require gov and/or private investment.

There's a real disconnect between the talk of the youth academy and the age of the first team it seems. Ajax in theory only. A better balance needs to be struck there.

Maybe the pitch was a factor, but what disappointed me most was how much more skillful the Icelandics looked in possession. Good to watch. Rovers were mostly laboured and clumsy in comparison.

[cláirseach]

Agree with anyone who has made the point already that Rovers are simply too predictable. They have been rolling out the same thing for years now and that will catch up with you. Drogheda have their number.

I would like to point out too that, for all the praise that some recieve, there is very little real experience amongst the managers in the Premier Division. Arguably only Buckley has proven his ability to make a significant impact on teams in previous roles (and look at what he has done for a Cork team that looked broken that night in Dalymount).

[Calcio Jack]

That's a post that sounds profound but actually when you think about it, it says nothing at all to contradict what the critics have been saying.

Not profound but just like Daniel McD pointing out that there’s more to the Rovers project than European results which others here don’t wish to acknowledge, me thinks they don’t because to do so would then surface the reality of how far behind us all other clubs are in terms of longer term sustainability.

[pineapple stu]

I think plenty of credit has been given here to the stadium (well done DCC) and to the crowds and the academy. Plenty.

The criticism here is at Bradley, who is arguably not the person to take Rovers to where their standing says they should be. Getting knocked out by a part-time Icelandic team in Europe can happen. But getting outplayed home and away? Two years since the same thing happened against an Estonian side? Nope - you can't go defending that.

And even on the academy, the criticism is very valid - look at Pat's bringing through Melia, Curtis and Abankwah in recent times. Rovers don't seem close to as keen to give guys a game. Some players may make the bench a bit, some get loaned out to UCD (and that's going well), some get sold at 16/17 which defeats the point. To have the leading academy in the country and a first-team with an average age of 30 indicates something's going wrong.

Ultimately, your posts don't have any substance at all unfortunately.

[geysir]

That game reminded me a bit of our 4th year secondary school team v the teachers, crafty nifty kids outwitting their cumbersome elders.
I wasn’t surprised by Breidablik, but Rovers? they had no engine room, no purposeful patterns of play.
That’s why Breidablik are the most respected club in Iceland, not only for the quality of their academy (1,300 kids, 55 or so licensed coaches) but also the enjoyable way they are set up to play the game. That’s their football culture.
Most of those players have come through their academy since they were toddlers, some have played abroad and returned, like homing pigeons. But they’re not Ajax, obviously they are beatable, they’re all part-timers, even the captain is the proverbial baker. And contrary to some reports, none of them are within an asses roar of the national team, some got capped in winter camp friendly internationals in Algarve or such winter warm places, filling in the holes in the squad. It's no shame to be thoroughly outplayed over 2 legs but probably Rovers had other thoughts about their team.

[Calcio Jack]

I think plenty of credit has been given here to the stadium (well done DCC) and to the crowds and the academy. Plenty.

The criticism here is at Bradley, who is arguably not the person to take Rovers to where their standing says they should be. Getting knocked out by a part-time Icelandic team in Europe can happen. But getting outplayed home and away? Two years since the same thing happened against an Estonian side? Nope - you can't go defending that.

And even on the academy, the criticism is very valid - look at Pat's bringing through Melia, Curtis and Abankwah in recent times. Rovers don't seem close to as keen to give guys a game. Some players may make the bench a bit, some get loaned out to UCD (and that's going well), some get sold at 16/17 which defeats the point. To have the leading academy in the country and a first-team with an average age of 30 indicates something's going wrong.

Ultimately, your posts don't have any substance at all unfortunately.

Firstly my posts mirror fairly much what Dan McD said in his article and their substance is to point out that ‘in the round’ Bradley has been the main architect of a huge amount of the progress we’ve made as a club during his tenure and that is what he should be judged on imo. I’ve acknowledged that the first team needs serious surgery etc. but that’s the nature of things and again imo Bradley should be trusted ( based on his record) to carry out that rebuild.

I’ll leave it there as at this point imo there’s nothing further to be gained from this discussion so time will tell who has fell and we’ll see who gets left behind.

[nigel-harps1954]

It's possibly approaching the territory that Bradley has simply taken them as far as he can, and someone else needs to take them to the next step.

[CSAD]

Not profound but just like Daniel McD pointing out that there’s more to the Rovers project than European results which others here don’t wish to acknowledge, me thinks they don’t because to do so would then surface the reality of how far behind us all other clubs are in terms of longer term sustainability.

How is having a side with an average age of over 30 sustainable? If anything that would worry me considering St Pats are only 4 points behind them in the league despite having a much younger squad, you tell me which squad has more growth?

[CSAD]

That game reminded me a bit of our 4th year secondary school team v the teachers, crafty nifty kids outwitting their cumbersome elders.
I wasn’t surprised by Breidablik, but Rovers? they had no engine room, no purposeful patterns of play.
That’s why Breidablik are the most respected club in Iceland, not only for the quality of their academy (1,300 kids, 55 or so licensed coaches) but also the enjoyable way they are set up to play the game. That’s their football culture.
Most of those players have come through their academy since they were toddlers, some have played abroad and returned, like homing pigeons. But they’re not Ajax, obviously they are beatable, they’re all part-timers, even the captain is the proverbial baker. And contrary to some reports, none of them are within an asses roar of the national team, some got capped in winter camp friendly internationals in Algarve or such winter warm places, filling in the holes in the squad. It's no shame to be thoroughly outplayed over 2 legs but probably Rovers had other thoughts about their team.

But that’s a huge issue with Rovers, for all their much vaunted academy who in the XI has actually come through it and into the Rovers XI? Pohls probably and I stop there.

[nigel-harps1954]

But that’s a huge issue with Rovers, for all their much vaunted academy who in the XI has actually come through it and into the Rovers XI? Pohls probably and I stop there.

Pohls didn't come through their academy.

[2 Year Contract]

But that’s a huge issue with Rovers, for all their much vaunted academy who in the XI has actually come through it and into the Rovers XI? Pohls probably and I stop there.

Pohls didn’t come through the rovers academy, he signed in 2019 aged 21

[CSAD]

Firstly my posts mirror fairly much what Dan McD said in his article and their substance is to point out that ‘in the round’ Bradley has been the main architect of a huge amount of the progress we’ve made as a club during his tenure and that is what he should be judged on imo. I’ve acknowledged that the first team needs serious surgery etc. but that’s the nature of things and again imo Bradley should be trusted ( based on his record) to carry out that rebuild.

I’ll leave it there as at this point imo there’s nothing further to be gained from this discussion so time will tell who has fell and we’ll see who gets left behind.

He’s had plenty of time to rebuild the squad and what good has he done? Like someone else said this is a squad he’s taken as far as he’s capable of taking them, he can win the league but at the end of the day he’s a poor coach that’s too easy to read and that gets exposed in Europe when you come up against different styles you need to be able to adapt and Bradley just isn’t capable of that. Injuries or no injuries all sides have injuries and what separates the good and bad coaches are how you adapt in these situations and Bradley consistently proves he just isn’t capable of adapting.

If you want to keep him fair enough but this is only going one way. Either this season or next Season Rovers will fail to win the league and then after that they’ll struggle to make Europe…that’s what Rovers future holds if they stick with Bradley.

[CSAD]

Pohls didn’t come through the rovers academy, he signed in 2019 aged 21

Wow well that’s makes thing a worse, so no one has come through the academy in their XI…

And some on here think this is a sustainable club!

[pineapple stu]

Firstly my posts mirror fairly much what Dan McD said in his article and their substance is to point out that ‘in the round’ Bradley has been the main architect of a huge amount of the progress we’ve made as a club during his tenure and that is what he should be judged on imo.

I think others have argued here that the Board are the main architects of the progress, not necessarily Bradley. I'd tend to agree. One way of judging Bradley is on European progress - which is huge for the club given the money involved - and he's going backwards, as I showed earlier.

I don't think his transfer record is great btw. Simon Power was always an unusual signing and hasn't made any impact. He's not been inclined to bring academy players through. Serdenyuk last year was rubbish by all accounts. He hasn't really been all that active in the transfer market at all really - that's why the squad is ageing and so similar to 3/4 years ago. Is he the person to lead a rebuild? Not sure he is.

One thing McDonnell doesn't mention - the only criticism I'd have of the article I think - is Dundalk and Cork's collapses, which catapulted Rovers to the top kind of by default. There was no particular indication in his first three years that Bradley would have managed that by himself.

[SPXcyan]

Klaksvik with an early goal in Hungary!

[osarusan]

It's possibly approaching the territory that Bradley has simply taken them as far as he can, and someone else needs to take them to the next step.

This has been my thinking for a while.

Given the way Rovers have got their act together very much as a club, in terms of academy, finances, ground, them becoming the dominant force in LOI was pretty much inevitable.

I do think there are similarities to Celtic there in that, despite Postecoglou winning everything there, there's still a question mark over whether those successes demonstrate that he's actually a decent manager, or whether they just demonstrate he's competent enough to avoid f**king things up.

What has Bradley done that is clearly him getting more than the sum of its parts from his team?

[pineapple stu]

Klaksvik with an early goal in Hungary!

Crumbs!

Worth noting they've won all 16 of their league games this season too.

I'm sure we'll have them bigged up if they do lose (and face Rovers next)