Republic of Ireland V Latvia - Wednesday, 22nd March 2023 - Friendly

[Yard of Pace]

Lawrenson was also good in midfield.

I think it’s worth noting though that the ball almost always went long from the goalkeeper so Lawrenson and McGrath would usually be facing the ball on its way back when they’d first get hold of it. It wasn’t really until Keane came into the team that we had a midfielder who could receive the ball deep and pivot to face forward and it was well into Mick’s tenure that this became routine. He did it so well too, receiving it on his left, turning with ease and facing forward with the ball in his right foot. I’m sure Giles and others did this but under Jack there was no Cullen type role. I think people misremember how good we were in midfield under Jack - Lawro, McGrath, Houghton, Sheedy, Whelan, Sheridan… - but there was never really any deep ball player.

Collins would have done a great job in a Jack midfield.

I have watched some whole matches and would Brady not have been the first to be constantly looking for the ball far back in our half? He's absolutely amazing in the matches I have watched.

Nathan Collins is not even 22 till next month so maybe it's something for the future. Cullen is probably our most important player. I thought Molumby had some fantastic games last year but I still don't think he's top level or will ever be. He's great, don't get me wrong, but (and I know this isn't great punditry) he's still too much of a nutcase. He'll either kill someone or no one. He's only had a few games in between that, when he's been fantastic.

[Stuttgart88]

Yes Brady of course but Brady retired quite early in Jack’s tenure. My main point is that Collins could have played well in Jack’s midfield but that being able to receive the ball on the half turn wasn’t an essential part of a midfielder’s role under Jack. Despite being defenders by nature I don’t recall Lawrenson or McGrath really doing that. I’m not sure a natural CM like Whelan did much either, but it was bloody ages ago now!

[seanfhear]

Lawrenson did well in midfield when he was used there ~ As did Paul McGrath with the added bonus that no opposition was going to try to throw their weight about anywhere near Paul McGrath.

I remember a game where McGrath was probably actually playing centre-back at Wembley ~ Anyway Brian Robson ( a truly great player / all-round great player ) was throwing his weight around big time fro the first 15 minutes or so ~ Probably believing that as England Captain at Wembley he would be unlikely to get a yellow card or red card as that was kind of the way things were back then ~ Anyway McGrath waited for his chance, and it came with Robson about 35 yards out from the English goal ~ McGrath put Robson high up in to the air and that was the end of Robson throwing his weight around for that match anyway ~ That kind of thing had to be done, now and again back in those days.

[TonyD]

Yes Brady of course but Brady retired quite early in Jack’s tenure. My main point is that Collins could have played well in Jack’s midfield but that being able to receive the ball on the half turn wasn’t an essential part of a midfielder’s role under Jack. Despite being defenders by nature I don’t recall Lawrenson or McGrath really doing that. I’m not sure a natural CM like Whelan did much either, but it was bloody ages ago now!

Yeah, thinking about it I’d definitely agree with this. Both Lawrenson and McGrath did well in midfield for Charlton teams, but he wasn’t looking for his midfielders to receive the ball deep from defenders, so as you say they’d mostly have got the ball when facing forwards. The point with Coll8ns is more from a defensive point of view really. He might give us an extra solidity in front of the back four (and help cut out these shots from outside the box) while still being decent enough in possession not to panic when asked to get on the ball. I’m not sure it would work either, but it’s something that might be worth a look. We are very wide open in the middle at times. Funnily enough we may be less so against the French, when they are likely to have more possession. It might allow us to be more compact. I would seriously think about starting Ogbene with Ferguson up front. He’s likely to put in more of a shift than Obafemi without the ball I think, and could potentially make a nuisance of himself for the French defenders, plus he as the pace to cause a threat on the break. He may not be suited to games where we're trying to break teams down, but if we are looking to play on the break this just might be one for him.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Anyone got the latest on Luxembourg tonight?

[Nesta99]

Yeah, thinking about it I’d definitely agree with this. Both Lawrenson and McGrath did well in midfield for Charlton teams, but he wasn’t looking for his midfielders to receive the ball deep from defenders, so as you say they’d mostly have got the ball when facing forwards. The point with Coll8ns is more from a defensive point of view really. He might give us an extra solidity in front of the back four (and help cut out these shots from outside the box) while still being decent enough in possession not to panic when asked to get on the ball. I’m not sure it would work either, but it’s something that might be worth a look. We are very wide open in the middle at times. Funnily enough we may be less so against the French, when they are likely to have more possession. It might allow us to be more compact. I would seriously think about starting Ogbene with Ferguson up front. He’s likely to put in more of a shift than Obafemi without the ball I think, and could potentially make a nuisance of himself for the French defenders, plus he as the pace to cause a threat on the break. He may not be suited to games where we're trying to break teams down, but if we are looking to play on the break this just might be one for him.

I think this is the key for this game and not in a backs to the wall and hoof it out way. Compact with an out ball and putting phases together on the counter that may make the French think twice about constantly trying to overload us. I will probably have a dozen mini strokes if trying to pass it out under a high press but old habits die hard. I also agree on the observation on how reluctant Kenny is on making early tactical subs, but that was mentioned more than once in Oriel Park back in the day - I think he backs the players to just come good and there are times when it just isnt happening. We cant argue against the odds that we are more likely to loose than win but a good performance is important with the natives getting restless. I did like Deschamp's description of how Ireland used to be 'Direct and vertical' ala 2016 and that there is a little more to the way we play since, even if its just pre match nicities - its not totally untrue either.

[Nesta99]

Anyone got the latest on Luxembourg tonight?

No but do have the Portugal result - won 6 nil! Do you think we should be Portugal out of interst? Assuming your question wasnt just simple and straightforward!

[Kingdom]

Anyone got the latest on Luxembourg tonight?

Im sure if you ask your mum nicely she'll give you the wifi code to let you use google to check out the uefa website.
Unless its past your bedtime?

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Im sure if you ask your mum nicely she'll give you the wifi code to let you use google to check out the uefa website.
Unless its past your bedtime?

Rattled.

Tonight's the night. It's finally here. I'm excited. You can't underestimate the impact a full house screaming for blood has on the opposition but more importantly our own team. I'm going to be losing my voice anyway. France won't come in to this game with the right attitude. They will be assuming they'll win. We will hit them hard and they will struggle to recover. Yes there will be ropey moments but we're going to win! I can feel it. We'll be dancing for the night in Lansdowne until they kick us out. Ireland 2 France 1.

BOOMSHAKALAKA!!!!

[paul_oshea]

Maybe in terms of results Paul? Staunton failed with a better bunch though. It was all the more glaring when he had some of our best players of the past 3 or 4 decades to pick from, some of whom were right in their prime e.g. Dunne, Finnan, O'Shea and Keane. 2007 was a fairly stellar year for a lot of them. Not from memory but using a bit of Googling: Dunne got his 3rd POTY in a row for Man City, Finnan played in the CL final, O'Shea had a great year with United and Keane struck up his Berbatov partnership at Spurs and had his best ever year (31 goals and 13 assists in 40 appearances and the highest PL scorer in that calendar year)............... Then we got taken apart by an out of form Cyprus. Look on the bright side, we just beat Latvia with nobody near those players in terms of ability or form.

That's not to excuse the lack of adjustment for long range shots or the general sense of chaos that seems to strike us after conceding a goal. Last night wasn't pretty in parts, particularly in the middle but there were some good moments further up the pitch.

Would it be fair to say you don't seem to rate many of the players on their individual threads but you also don't rate the mgmt team? Would like to hear your ideal starting 11 and tactical approach with the current squad.

I think in terms of players there's probably as good as players coming through now but just lacking the experience. I meant in terms of the frailties that we have spoken of in this thread and in the past few threads. Staunton had us playing some lovely football at times. That slovakia game, the away Denmark game(a friendly i know), the first czech game. But then we had some awful attacking performances away mostly when we were already out of the running. The similarities were the gaping holes in midfield, the lack of concentration, the silly mistakes in defence and some general lovely football pleasing on the eye. Managers who just didnt have the experience of managing at international level and who are/were very rigid in their mindsets of how the game should be played.

I don't not rate players, but I dont rate them the same as people on here do. I'd rate them like the general public do I imagine, for example Idah.

I think we have the bones of a potentially very good team if the trajectory of certain players keeps going at 0(n) or 0(log n) rate they are currently on. I believe we have 5 players who are easily going to be as good as those mentioned above by you. Remember though the PL is 15-20 years more competitive than it was in the mid 2000s, its a world league dominated by Global stars, so the likes of Finnan at CL liverpool or even Dunne POTY at City is much more difficult and therefore much more unlikely to be seen anytime soon but that does not mean 5 Irish players playing mid premier league in 2-3 years isn't just as good an achievement. I've gone through my team before when Skstu asked, but that would change now a bit. I am excited by Ferguson hes one of the few players from the start who has shown something other than holding up the ball. I am excited by Obafemi but I worry he's more of an international type player and this limits him drastically. I am excited by Collins, but not as a Central Defender or certainly not in a back 2. My main concern with Collins is he's just not good enough for any one position. I am happy with O'Shea, Omobamidele. I believe Coleman, Egan, Doherty still have a lot to offer to us. I am excited too by Festy, Coventry, Smallbone too but havent seen enough of them yet. Cullen is decent, and happy with him but he's not the player to worry a Tier 1 or even Tier 2 team but until we find something better more than happy for him to be one of the first on the teamsheet. So I think we are in considerably good health compared to the last two managers looking ahead to the future. I had no complaints about the starting 11 v Latvia and said as much before hand that i wanted to see 2 of 3 with Ferguson and I got that.

On Nestas point, I have seen a lot of Kenny with Dundalk through Europe, I have seen him stubbornly leave substitutions till very late but Ive also seen him rigidly stick to his belief of playing one way when is plainly clear for all to see it needs to be changed. I still cant get that game away in Larnaca, going out there with it all to play for and getting thrashed 4-0 when it was clear their danger man needed someone following him around as Dundalk kept getting caught on the counter due to being too open and religiously sticking to his 4-3-3 ( yes I know that mould has been broken perhaps due to Barry or not). That's my main fear still with Kenny. We can look to be in the game but then we could be out of it in 10 minutes and even then he wouldn't look to change it. Good managers will identify and change, a fluid approach without the need to compromise their principals.

Lastly on Collins in midfield, I had been saying for a while I'd like to see him in midfield just sitting ahead of the defence but I'm not sure he has that two yard 1 step turn thats needed to get out of trouble and/or open the pitch up he's just a little bit slow, a bit static for that I feel. Would still like to see him tried in there before the campaign is out.

One other thing that's been on my mind reading comments on here is that I believe fans are somewhat blinded by players, obvious issues shrouded by the ability to play nice ball, getting lost in the fact that the player just isn't good enough even if he's pleasing on the eye. Like the nice one in the club, getting the attention, then giving you the attention, then she'd disappear or go missing she'd let you down last minute (again).

[paul_oshea]

Meant to include Andy Lyons in the above. I really liked the look of him for Rovers in Europe. Thats also how I made the points on ferizaj and him not being good enough due to his lack of pace.

[tetsujin1979]

Some trivia about Ogbene's goal

[Diggs246]

Anyone got the latest on Luxembourg tonight?

No but Armenia were in the unusual position of losing their first game of their group at home v turkey. As opposed to winning it verus us. !

Tbf to Luxembourg 8 of their players are full time professionals. !

[ontheotherhand]

I think in terms of players there's probably as good as players coming through now but just lacking the experience. I meant in terms of the frailties that we have spoken of in this thread and in the past few threads. Staunton had us playing some lovely football at times. That slovakia game, the away Denmark game(a friendly i know), the first czech game. But then we had some awful attacking performances away mostly when we were already out of the running. The similarities were the gaping holes in midfield, the lack of concentration, the silly mistakes in defence and some general lovely football pleasing on the eye. Managers who just didnt have the experience of managing at international level and who are/were very rigid in their mindsets of how the game should be played.

I don't not rate players, but I dont rate them the same as people on here do. I'd rate them like the general public do I imagine, for example Idah.

I think we have the bones of a potentially very good team if the trajectory of certain players keeps going at 0(n) or 0(log n) rate they are currently on. I believe we have 5 players who are easily going to be as good as those mentioned above by you. Remember though the PL is 15-20 years more competitive than it was in the mid 2000s, its a world league dominated by Global stars, so the likes of Finnan at CL liverpool or even Dunne POTY at City is much more difficult and therefore much more unlikely to be seen anytime soon but that does not mean 5 Irish players playing mid premier league in 2-3 years isn't just as good an achievement. I've gone through my team before when Skstu asked, but that would change now a bit. I am excited by Ferguson hes one of the few players from the start who has shown something other than holding up the ball. I am excited by Obafemi but I worry he's more of an international type player and this limits him drastically. I am excited by Collins, but not as a Central Defender or certainly not in a back 2. My main concern with Collins is he's just not good enough for any one position. I am happy with O'Shea, Omobamidele. I believe Coleman, Egan, Doherty still have a lot to offer to us. I am excited too by Festy, Coventry, Smallbone too but havent seen enough of them yet. Cullen is decent, and happy with him but he's not the player to worry a Tier 1 or even Tier 2 team but until we find something better more than happy for him to be one of the first on the teamsheet. So I think we are in considerably good health compared to the last two managers looking ahead to the future. I had no complaints about the starting 11 v Latvia and said as much before hand that i wanted to see 2 of 3 with Ferguson and I got that.

On Nestas point, I have seen a lot of Kenny with Dundalk through Europe, I have seen him stubbornly leave substitutions till very late but Ive also seen him rigidly stick to his belief of playing one way when is plainly clear for all to see it needs to be changed. I still cant get that game away in Larnaca, going out there with it all to play for and getting thrashed 4-0 when it was clear their danger man needed someone following him around as Dundalk kept getting caught on the counter due to being too open and religiously sticking to his 4-3-3 ( yes I know that mould has been broken perhaps due to Barry or not). That's my main fear still with Kenny. We can look to be in the game but then we could be out of it in 10 minutes and even then he wouldn't look to change it. Good managers will identify and change, a fluid approach without the need to compromise their principals.

Lastly on Collins in midfield, I had been saying for a while I'd like to see him in midfield just sitting ahead of the defence but I'm not sure he has that two yard 1 step turn thats needed to get out of trouble and/or open the pitch up he's just a little bit slow, a bit static for that I feel. Would still like to see him tried in there before the campaign is out.

One other thing that's been on my mind reading comments on here is that I believe fans are somewhat blinded by players, obvious issues shrouded by the ability to play nice ball, getting lost in the fact that the player just isn't good enough even if he's pleasing on the eye. Like the nice one in the club, getting the attention, then giving you the attention, then she'd disappear or go missing she'd let you down last minute (again).

Thanks for the reply. I agree with some of your points.

Kenny at Dundalk was a different animal altogether. He basically made the same subs all the time. Kilduff was on LoI Central a while back talking about how the team and subs picked themselves. Not sure Kenny really knows how to make adjustments although he did well tonight against the French I thought.

On the 5 players I'd love to hear the current ones you think could get to their levels. And you say easily? I think we overplay the strength of the EPL now v then and the whole global superstar thing. Yeah it's gone up a level and it's faster and more technical but taking Finnan for example, he played in the CL final against Milan. Liverpool had one English player and Milan had 4 Italians, 2 of whom would have been consistently brought up in any world's best 11 discussion. The rest were top players from all over the world. Milan had Kaka in his prime. Finnan was playing at a level none of our current crop will ever get near. Same for Duff and arguably Keane. I'd be hesitant to say anyone could even get near O'Shea. Collins might get to Dunne's level which would be excellent. IF he was to cement his place at wolves in the lower end of the EPL by age 23/34 and win 3 POTYs we'd be in good shape. Ferguson is a different type of player to Keane but he has loads of potential.

Nobody else springs to mind from this batch. Maybe Moran, Zefi or some other underage lads are who you're thinking about?

Generally though it sounds like you have issues with Kennys tactics and approach but also recognize than the current squad is one with potential but lacking in experience and ability as of now? Which would you say is the larger issue for us right now?

[tetsujin1979]

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