Boycott Shell - Free the Five !!!

[dahamsta]

Have you factual evidence supporting your suggestion that these particular protestors are spouting unqualified rubbish cullenswood?

adam

[liam88]

Is a criminal not someone who breaks the law, and if the court instructs you to do something and you disobey, is that not breaking the law?

I am also sick of the amount of NIMBY's in this country, it is getting ridiculous. All you need is one rabble-rouser in a community to spout a load of unqualified rubbish and you will get a load of people believing this nonsense. I remember about 20 years ago the Tara mast was being erected in Meath and there were massive protests, and claims saying that Meath would be like Chernobyl (sp), and become a waste land, because there would be so much radiation. 20 years later and there is not so much as a three eyed fish in the area. These statements were taken as fact by the protestors at the time though.

These men would not accept an independent study on the issue, unless it rules their way.

They deserve to stay in prison until they accept the law.

Your problem here is that you are viewing the law as a black and white issue and not taking moral/ethical concerns into account.
Take this for example: it is a crime to punch someone and you can be sent to prison for this. Now think of a man who wife or child has just been attacked punching the assailent......it's not so simple. The law should take into account reasoning.
With regards to the "NIMBY" issue I think it is perfectly acceptable to be against a huge gas pipeline running thoguh, literally, your back yard....i'm usre you would be.

[dahamsta]

The phrase you're looking for is civil disobedience Liam. It would appear some people have never heard of the concept. Perhaps they could enlighten themselves by reading this Wikipedia article before they post again and look even more ignorant (unappraised of the facts) and/or ignorant (stupid).

(I'm not looking at any one particular person. I'd do myself an injury trying to look at that many people at once.)

adam

[rebs23]

Anyone boycotting Shell over the whole episode ??

No. We are a democratic country, with a government elected by the people to enact laws and ensure the well being of the people.
This project has gone throught the planning process, got approval from all the appropriate state agencies etc, etc.

These individuals have broken the laws of this country and have refused to give an undertaking to the legal system in this country and therefore the people to abide by the democratic laws of this country.

They have put themselves in jail and therefore will stay there until they give an undertaking to abide by the law.

Civil Disobedience usually only works when it has the support of the majority of the people against some stupid law or government decision. Its only a guess but I would say (given the turnout at marches etc)the 5 jailed do not have the support of the people of Ireland or indeed the people of Mayo.

[liam88]

Civil Disobedience usually only works when it has the support of the majority of the people against some stupid law or government decision. Its only a guess but I would say (given the turnout at marches etc)the 5 jailed do not have the support of the people of Ireland or indeed the people of Mayo.

They have the support oifthe majority of Rossport and that is where the pipeline is.

[rebs23]

They have the support oifthe majority of Rossport and that is where the pipeline is.

Maybe so Liam but unforunately for their sake Rossport isn't an independant republic that can make it's own laws.

[monutdfc]

The construction of the ESB HQ on Fitzwilliam Square went through the proper planning process, complete with the blessing of an independent expert, who was a leading scholar of Georgian architecture. Protests were ignored and as a result there is now an incongruous eyesore spoiling Fitzwilliam Square.
The planing process cannot always be relied upon, and in this country is often conveniently ignored for money or votes. One of the the supposedly independent consultants whose report was relied upon in the planning process in this case has Shell as a major shareholder.

[dahamsta]

The old Telecom Eireann building on Lapps Quay in Cork is another perfect example of the horrors of the Irish planning system. The existing building was bad enough, but then they tacked a shapeless monstrosity onto the side of it. The person responsible for approving that horror should be shot.

adam

[bigmac]

Ok folks, I'm a geologist with experience in the oil industry and I'm a little taken aback at some of the comments on this thread. A couple of facts should be pointed out here.

Firstly, the plans for the Corrib field were drawn up and submitted by Enterprise Oil, an Irish company which was subsequently bought out by Shell. Therefore the "us against the big evil corporation" line is not strictly valid.

With regards to the Nigeria situation, the major stakeholders in that operation are in fact the Nigerian state oil company.

The two people executed were killed despite strong protests and appeals from Shell, who did not have "a very heavy hand in fabricating evidence" in relation to the case. The two executed were convicted of sabotaging a government owned pipeline, which had absolutely nothing to do with Shell. I appreciate the strength of your feelings but in this situation I think your anger should be directed at the Nigerian government, rather than the oil company. The government is undeniably corrupt and it is they who are pocketing money from the state company, not Shell who are lining their pockets.

I assume that with people's keen desire to boycott Shell for moral reasons they also refrain from wearing Nike clothes, or drinking non-fairtrade coffee or buying any products that are made in China, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines... the list can continue as long as you like.




Incidentally, I suspect that had the original plans included an offshore processing platform, a similar sized rumpus would have arisen over pollution fears from the terminal and loss of possible jobs for the Mayo area. The technology used in the project proposal (sub sea manifold extraction systems) are far less likely to pollute than semi submersible drilling platforms.

[bigmac]

Lest I be accused of oil-company bias (I am a geologist after all, though I do not work for an oil company), this is an extract from Amnesty International's annual report. I draw your attention to the final line. Note that the report makes no mention of any human rights violations or complicity in any such acts by any oil companies.

There was continuing violence in the Niger Delta and reports of excessive use of force by the security forces or law enforcement officials. Many hundreds of people were reportedly killed in the Delta, Bayelsa and Rivers States in 2004. The economic, social and cultural rights of the people in the Niger Delta – the main oil-producing region in the country – continued in general to be unfulfilled, leading to increasing frustration and tension both within and between communities. The situation was exacerbated by the easy availability of guns in the region. Oil company employees and assets, such as pipelines, were frequently targeted for attack and sabotage.

[rebs23]

The construction of the ESB HQ on Fitzwilliam Square went through the proper planning process, complete with the blessing of an independent expert, who was a leading scholar of Georgian architecture. Protests were ignored and as a result there is now an incongruous eyesore spoiling Fitzwilliam Square.
The planing process cannot always be relied upon, and in this country is often conveniently ignored for money or votes. One of the the supposedly independent consultants whose report was relied upon in the planning process in this case has Shell as a major shareholder.

The Irish Planning System is probably one of the most expensive and lenghty planning processes anywhere in the world. It has changed significantly over the last 10 years alone and has gone from one extreme to the other. Within any planning process anywhere there are going to be ugly/inappropriate buildings built. There is also no accounting for taste or style. No planning system can fully protect against that. As for independant consultants there were many in this case and I don't think the process took just one into consideration.

The point in relation to the Rossport 5 is that they lost in the democratic planning system which is extensive, includes several appeals and now feel they can take the law into their own hands.

[liam88]

Rubbish about workers getting laid off is just stupid......should the Rwandan genocide have been condoned because it was a job for the soldiers?

Shell treat their employees like cr*p-my parents both worked for Shell and have experienced it first hand. Shell could get the oil without this pipeline but it would cost that little bit more for them -same as Totaliterian oil in Burma, human rights and lvies do not equal 1p to these pople

[Bald Student]

the technology being used for the pipeline is unproven.

I didn't want to get involved in this discussion but I can't let that go unchallenged. I don't have any experience in pipelines but I do have a degree in engineering and from what I can tell the technology is a big thick steel pipe surrounded by about a metre of concrete. There is nothing unproven about that. The steel pipe will be thick enough to take multiples of any pressure it's likely to ever have to and the concrete will prevent anyone from accidentally damaging the pipe if they're out digging.

What's going through the pipe (natural gas mixed with water) is fairly standard stuff and has gone through similar pipelines many times before so there won't be any surprises there. All in all, very bog standard, well understood, proven technology.

[bigmac]

Shell treat their employees like cr*p-my parents both worked for Shell and have experienced it first hand.

Can you give examples Liam? I'd be interested in hearing your side of the story as I've never heard any Shell employee complaining about the company.

[anto1208]

Rubbish about workers getting laid off is just stupid......should the Rwandan genocide have been condoned because it was a job for the soldiers?

Shell treat their employees like cr*p-my parents both worked for Shell and have experienced it first hand. Shell could get the oil without this pipeline but it would cost that little bit more for them -same as Totaliterian oil in Burma, human rights and lvies do not equal 1p to these pople

you are kidding ? you are compairing genocide to a few farmers in jail .
about 280 workers have been laid off , that could be 280 families with no pay check coming in ,no money for the mortgage etc etc , that to me is a lot more important than a farmer complaining about having a pipe through there land ,

there is no such worries about the bord gais pipe line that runs across the country

[monutdfc]

there is no such worries about the bord gais pipe line that runs across the country

...following a strange zig-zag route through constituencies of the ministers of the time and/or marginal constituencies

[liam88]

you are kidding ? you are compairing genocide to a few farmers in jail .
about 280 workers have been laid off , that could be 280 families with no pay check coming in ,no money for the mortgage etc etc , that to me is a lot more important than a farmer complaining about having a pipe through there land ,

there is no such worries about the bord gais pipe line that runs across the country

I'm comparing the principle. If Shell paid that little bit ore money to have a gas refinery at sea as opposed to smack bang through peoples land then the workers would not have to be liad off....the problem is Shell wasnt to pay as little as possible and if that means a few hundred jobs are lost or a few hundred lives are in danger (or even a couple of executions) then it's not their problem......same with Total, Nestle and Coke; profit comes before people.

With regards to Shell and their employees-i'm talking about engaged couple being put on seperate shifts so they never see each other despite having worked perfectly well together before the bosses found out they were engaged, people being made redundant then not given a pension because they were 2 years to young.....the kind of stuff that's not life threatening but shows that the bosses just really do not care.

[liam88]

there is no such worries about the bord gais pipe line that runs across the country

Did they steal land and put it on aunstable ground? No?

[Student Mullet]

If Shell paid that little bit ore money to have a gas refinery at sea as opposed to smack bang through peoples land then the workers would not have to be liad off.

But they would have to work on a rig which is much more dangerous than working on solid ground. The gas would still have to be piped ashore smack bang through peoples land. Safety for the workers would have been reduced and safety for the locals would be the same.

This is why competent engineers and not local farmers are employed in the design and construction of gas refinerys.

Did they steal land and put it on aunstable ground? No?

Liam, the land is not being stolen. It is being bought and paid for according to the laws of this country. The Bord Gais pipes would have been constructed according to the same laws.

[A face]

about 280 workers have been laid off , that could be 280 families with no pay check coming in ,no money for the mortgage etc etc

But is that actually true ?? .... i know its been put out there and it would obviously ring a few alarm bells with people ..... but the companies who sub-contracted the work, did they employ workers specifically for this job ? And the total amount of workers .... is 280 to do all the work on the land (does that figure not include anyone working at sea) .... I wouldn't put it past any company to try and use the media for their own benefit ... so i would take that with a grain of salt until its more than just a rumour. Nothing 'official' from Shell yet on that one.

Does everyone know that the state wont actually make a red cent from all of this, not a bean !!