Historical squad comparison

[paul_oshea]

Here's my squad across the two groups. Taking players based on the age and level they were achieving at that time i.e. 22 year old Richard Dunne in 2002 and James McClean based on his level today. I've also included players that were injured or busy walking the dog in 2002 but would have been there otherwise.

Shay Given
Gavin Bazunu
Caoimhin Kelleher
Steve Finnan
Stephen Carr
Matt Doherty
Ian Harte
Nathan Collins
John Egan
Kenny Cunningham
Dara O'Shea
Andrew Omobamidele
Roy Keane
Josh Cullen
Matt Holland
Mark Kinsella
Kevin Kilbane
Jason Knight
Damien Duff
Robbie Keane
Evan Ferguson
Niall Quinn
Michael Obafemi

I've picked 23 rather than a team because it's hard to compare starting teams given the different formations each team played - the 2002 team played 4-4-2, hardly anybody plays that anymore. A very decent squad I would say, that group could do some damage at a World Cup.

Although some unproven I like that look of that squad. It gives us many facets and the ability to change it up if one system or formation isnt working for us. There'd always be the element of surprise too.

I think viewing the players of 2002 and even of today is all about from an Irish perspective. Matt Holland for example proved to be a pretty good player for us even if he had a fairly ordinary club career. I'm sure Ipswich and Charlton fans appreciated him as much as we did and that's a fair reflection of his level. But our level at the time was better than CHarlton and Ipswich.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Discussions and disagreements on Kilbane and McClean is like eating chicken feet or giblets at an all you can eat Chinese.

Neither of them had a peak and the one asset they both shared but also only had was kick the ball in front of the defender and run as fast as you can to get around him. It worked more often for Kilbane because 4-4-2 was the order of the day and the 3rd centre back wasn't coming across that space as you see now. The other thing they both shared and a very admirable quality was the love of playing for their country built on backgrounds that were the foundations of an anti-english sentiment.

Theres an awful lot of nostalgia on this thread. Nostalgia sadly clouds the truth.

I think this is a fair assessment. People are maybe remembering the best moments of players careers while ignoring their overall standard.

The truth is probably that our players from back then and now are quite average overall, apart from a few exceptions. I really don't think much separates them.

[Kingdom]

The starting lineups for every match had Duff and Keane up front. Quinn was brought on late in games when we were losing (except Saudi Arabia) so it was a different dynamic.

I think you need to re-read the thread. Age has been brought up and one of the reasons that Finnan would be selected over Coleman. Also why Staunton wouldn't start. I think Gary Kelly was past his best as well, leaving space for Doherty to start possibly.

Were you even born when the 02 WC was played?

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Were you even born when the 02 WC was played?

Not all of us are as young as you Kingdom. There are some good highlights of the 2002 matches on youtube if you need to see some of the things we're talking about.

[Razors left peg]

So what I'm understanding here is that Boomers is too young to even have seen Roy Keane play, but may have seen some good YouTube clips... f@*$ me I'm starting to get old

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

So what I'm understanding here is that Boomers is too young to even have seen Roy Keane play, but may have seen some good YouTube clips... f@*$ me I'm starting to get old

You're getting into a habit of being wrong. I was helping Kingdom out because he wasn't around for the 02 world cup. But it is funny to be referred to as being old and young in the same post!

[tetsujin1979]

You're getting into a habit of being wrong. I was helping Kingdom out because he wasn't around for the 02 world cup. But it is funny to be referred to as being old and young in the same post!

Tell me you've never met Kingdom without telling me you've never met Kingdom

[SkStu]

You are the manager going into a world cup tomorrow. These are the players at your disposal today. Pick your 23 man squad and your preferred starting 11 and formation.

- World Cup 2002 final squad and Ireland Call ups in last 12 months (2022).
- have grouped these as logically as possible (442 v 343 v 352 makes it tricky)

Goalkeepers
Shay Given – 26 – Newcastle
Alan Kelly – 33 – Blackburn
Dean Kiely – 31 – Charlton
Gavin Bazunu – 20 – Southampton
Caoimhin Kelleger – 24 – Liverpool
Mark Travers – 23 – Bournemouth

Centre Backs
Kenny Cunningham – 30 – Wimbledon
Steve Staunton – 33 – Aston Villa
Gary Breen – 28 – Coventry City
Richard Dunne – 22 – Manchester City
Andy O’Brien – 22 – Newcastle
John Egan – 30 – Sheffield United
Shane Duffy – 31 – Fulham
Dara O’Shea – 23 – West Brom
Nathan Collins – 21 – Wolves
Darragh Lenihan – 28 – Middlesborough
Andrew Omobamidele – 20 – Norwich


Left Backs / Wing Backs
Ian Harte – 24 – Leeds
James McClean – 33 – Wigan
Liam Scales – 24 – Aberdeen
Ryan Manning – 26 – Swansea
Enda Stevens – 32 – Sheffield United

Right Backs / Wing Backs
Steve Finnan – 26 – Fulham
Gary Kelly – 27 – Leeds
Seamus Coleman – 34 – Everton
Matt Doherty – 31 – Atletico
Cyrus Christie – 30 – Hull

Centre Mids (6 & 8)
Roy Keane – 30 – Manchester United
Matt Holland – 28 – Ipswich Town
Mark Kinsella – 29 – Charlton Athletic
Steven Reid – 21 – Milwall
Lee Carsley – 28 – Everton
Jeff Hendrick – 30 – Reading
Alan Browne – 27 – Preston NE
Josh Cullen – 26 – Burnley
Jayson Molumby – 23 – West Brom
Jason Knight – 21 – Derby


Attacking Mids
Jamie McGrath – 26 – Dundee United
Mark Sykes – 25 – Bristol City
Will Smallbone – 22 – Stoke
Conor Hourihane – 31 – Derby
Connor Ronan – 25 – Colorado

Wide Attackers
Damien Duff – 23 – Blackburn
Kevin Kilbane – 25 – Sunderland
Jason McAteer – 30 – Sunderland
Callum Robinson – 27 Cardiff
Callum O’Dowda – 27 – Cardiff
Chiedoze Ogbene – 25 – Rotherham
Festy Ebosele – 20 – Udinese
CJ Hamilton – 27 – Blackpool

Centre Forwards
Robbie Keane – 21 – Leeds
Niall Quinn – 35 – Sunderland
Clinton Morrisson – 23 – Crystal Palace
David Connolly – 24 – Wimbledon
Michael Obafemi – 22 – Swansea
Evan Ferguson – 18 – Brighton
Scott Hogan – 30 – Birmingham
Will Keane – 30 – Wigan Athletic
Troy Parrott – 20 – Preston NE

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Tell me you've never met Kingdom without telling me you've never met Kingdom

Really? I got the impression he's a young lad just going on some of his posts and opinions I've read. It's hard to tell I suppose.

[Eirambler]

I stand by my earlier squad but, since SkStu's rules prevent me from picking Stephen Carr I'll replace him with Stephen Reid as a utility defender/midfielder (I considered Gary Kelly as a straight swap but I think he was past his best by 2002).

Shay Given
Gavin Bazunu
Caoimhin Kelleher
Steve Finnan
Stephen Reid
Matt Doherty
Ian Harte
Nathan Collins
John Egan
Kenny Cunningham
Dara O'Shea
Andrew Omobamidele
Roy Keane
Josh Cullen
Matt Holland
Mark Kinsella
Kevin Kilbane
Jason Knight
Damien Duff
Robbie Keane
Evan Ferguson
Niall Quinn
Michael Obafemi

This thread also got me thinking - where would Damien Duff play for us if he was in the squad today, we don't play wingers and left midfielder is barely even still a real position in the game now. Left wing back? Second striker? As a central attacking midfielder? Hard to know where he'd fit in.

[tetsujin1979]

There are other players where you look to minimise their deficiencies, Duff is the complete opposite of that
He's the kind of player you'd build a team around, to get the absolute maximum from his talents

[SkStu]

Goalkeepers
Shay Given – 26 – Newcastle
Gavin Bazunu – 20 – Southampton
Caoimhin Kelleger – 24 – Liverpool

Centre Backs
Kenny Cunningham – 30 – Wimbledon
Steve Staunton – 33 – Aston Villa (versatility and experience)
Richard Dunne – 22 – Manchester City
John Egan – 30 – Sheffield United
Nathan Collins – 21 – Wolves

Left Backs / Wing Backs
Ian Harte – 24 – Leeds
James McClean – 33 – Wigan (versatility and experience)


Right Backs / Wing Backs
Steve Finnan – 26 – Fulham
Matt Doherty – 31 – Atletico

Centre Mids (6 & 8)
Roy Keane – 30 – Manchester United
Matt Holland – 28 – Ipswich Town
Josh Cullen – 26 – Burnley
Jason Knight – 21 – Derby

Attacking Mids

Wide Attackers
Damien Duff – 23 – Blackburn
Kevin Kilbane – 25 – Sunderland
Jason McAteer – 30 – Sunderland

Centre Forwards
Robbie Keane – 21 – Leeds
Niall Quinn – 35 – Sunderland
Michael Obafemi – 22 – Swansea
Evan Ferguson – 18 – Brighton

I'll go 343

Given

Cunningham
Egan
Collins

Doherty (close call with Finnan tbh)
Keane (c)
Holland
Harte (dont fully trust Harte here, too slow, lacks focus, McClean on as impact sub)

Obafemi
Keane
Duff (on the left but license to roam creating a front two at times)

[third policeman]

You are the manager going into a world cup tomorrow. These are the players at your disposal today. Pick your 23 man squad and your preferred starting 11 and formation.

- World Cup 2002 final squad and Ireland Call ups in last 12 months (2022).
- have grouped these as logically as possible (442 v 343 v 352 makes it tricky)

Goalkeepers
Shay Given – 26 – Newcastle
Alan Kelly – 33 – Blackburn
Dean Kiely – 31 – Charlton
Gavin Bazunu – 20 – Southampton
Caoimhin Kelleger – 24 – Liverpool
Mark Travers – 23 – Bournemouth

Centre Backs
Kenny Cunningham – 30 – Wimbledon
Steve Staunton – 33 – Aston Villa
Gary Breen – 28 – Coventry City
Richard Dunne – 22 – Manchester City
Andy O’Brien – 22 – Newcastle
John Egan – 30 – Sheffield United
Shane Duffy – 31 – Fulham
Dara O’Shea – 23 – West Brom
Nathan Collins – 21 – Wolves
Darragh Lenihan – 28 – Middlesborough
Andrew Omobamidele – 20 – Norwich


Left Backs / Wing Backs
Ian Harte – 24 – Leeds
James McClean – 33 – Wigan
Liam Scales – 24 – Aberdeen
Ryan Manning – 26 – Swansea
Enda Stevens – 32 – Sheffield United

Right Backs / Wing Backs
Steve Finnan – 26 – Fulham
Gary Kelly – 27 – Leeds
Seamus Coleman – 34 – Everton
Matt Doherty – 31 – Atletico
Cyrus Christie – 30 – Hull

Centre Mids (6 & 8)
Roy Keane – 30 – Manchester United
Matt Holland – 28 – Ipswich Town
Mark Kinsella – 29 – Charlton Athletic
Steven Reid – 21 – Milwall
Lee Carsley – 28 – Everton
Jeff Hendrick – 30 – Reading
Alan Browne – 27 – Preston NE
Josh Cullen – 26 – Burnley
Jayson Molumby – 23 – West Brom
Jason Knight – 21 – Derby


Attacking Mids
Jamie McGrath – 26 – Dundee United
Mark Sykes – 25 – Bristol City
Will Smallbone – 22 – Stoke
Conor Hourihane – 31 – Derby
Connor Ronan – 25 – Colorado

Wide Attackers
Damien Duff – 23 – Blackburn
Kevin Kilbane – 25 – Sunderland
Jason McAteer – 30 – Sunderland
Callum Robinson – 27 Cardiff
Callum O’Dowda – 27 – Cardiff
Chiedoze Ogbene – 25 – Rotherham
Festy Ebosele – 20 – Udinese
CJ Hamilton – 27 – Blackpool

Centre Forwards
Robbie Keane – 21 – Leeds
Niall Quinn – 35 – Sunderland
Clinton Morrisson – 23 – Crystal Palace
David Connolly – 24 – Wimbledon
Michael Obafemi – 22 – Swansea
Evan Ferguson – 18 – Brighton
Scott Hogan – 30 – Birmingham
Will Keane – 30 – Wigan Athletic
Troy Parrott – 20 – Preston NE

There are other players in the 2002 squad who would probably be automatic selections of they were playing now. Definitely Steven Reid, probably Clinton Morison and possibly David Connolly. Surely the acid test for comparing that squad with the present one (even allowing for the Kenny factor) is results. They got to the last 16 of a World Cup and were massively unlucky to lose to a decent Spanish team even without our pest player. I think Breen is the only member of that squad who would definitely not be in contention if he was playing today and Collins is the only current player who would make it into the starting 11 if he were playing then. The gulf is that big!

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Goalkeepers
Given
Bazunu
Kelleher

Centre backs
Egan
O Shea
Collins

Left backs
Harte
McClean

Right backs
Finnan
Coleman
Doherty

Centre midfielders
Keane
Cullen
Holland
Reid

Attacking midfielder

Wide attackers
Duff
Kilbane
Mcateer

Centre forwards
Keane
Quinn
Morrison
Obefami
Ferguson

Starting 11 3-5-2
_________Given_________
___Collins Egan O'Shea__
Finnan_____________Doherty
____Cullen Keane Reid____
________Keane Duff_______

[SkStu]

There are other players in the 2002 squad who would probably be automatic selections of they were playing now. Definitely Steven Reid, probably Clinton Morison and possibly David Connolly. Surely the acid test for comparing that squad with the present one (even allowing for the Kenny factor) is results. They got to the last 16 of a World Cup and were massively unlucky to lose to a decent Spanish team even without our pest player. I think Breen is the only member of that squad who would definitely not be in contention if he was playing today and Collins is the only current player who would make it into the starting 11 if he were playing then. The gulf is that big!

Totally agree for what its worth. Just trying to put a bit of manners on the thread and see how people might approach it if there was some structure applied to the question.

Eirambler is spot on though. Its almost impossible to do this because the two managers were picking players for vastly different formations.

[Eirambler]

Another thing I'm realising from this. Unless I'm forgetting anyone we haven't really had a genuinely good quality left back/left wing back since the 1990s. Harte obviously had ability but was slow and defensively suspect. After that there was Kilbane, Ward, McClean - mostly more attacking players who dropped back as they got older. Stevens - average enough. There's nobody obvious coming through in the position either. Seems to be a perennial problem position for us.

[passinginterest]

Goalkeepers
Shay Given – 26 – Newcastle
Dean Kiely – 31 – Charlton
Gavin Bazunu – 20 – Southampton


Centre Backs
Kenny Cunningham – 30 – Wimbledon
Steve Staunton – 33 – Aston Villa
John Egan – 30 – Sheffield United
Nathan Collins – 21 – Wolves



Left Backs / Wing Backs
Ian Harte – 24 – Leeds
Enda Stevens – 32 – Sheffield United

Right Backs / Wing Backs
Steve Finnan – 26 – Fulham
Matt Doherty – 31 – Atletico


Centre Mids (6 & 8)
Roy Keane – 30 – Manchester United
Matt Holland – 28 – Ipswich Town
Mark Kinsella – 29 – Charlton Athletic
Lee Carsley – 28 – Everton
Josh Cullen – 26 – Burnley


Attacking Mids


Wide Attackers
Damien Duff – 23 – Blackburn
Kevin Kilbane – 25 – Sunderland
Chiedoze Ogbene – 25 – Rotherham


Centre Forwards
Robbie Keane – 21 – Leeds
Niall Quinn – 35 – Sunderland
Michael Obafemi – 22 – Swansea
Evan Ferguson – 18 – Brighton

Tough to chose, I couldn't leave Quinn out, I don't think the other forwards have proven enough or have enough form to oust him. Connolly probably hard done by not to be ahead of Obafemi, but he was nearly always underwhelming on the international stage and got himself some stupid cards over the years too. Probably a but imbalanced and showing my own personal bias for some (although I loved McAteer as a player and it hurt to leave him out, but he was past his best at that stage). Stan keeps a place in the squad, he was pure quality, ok he was past his best too and lost pace, but his experience and ability on the ball was still there.

Might have to go with a 3-5-2 of some sort, tricky to fit Duff in too as his best position was no doubt as an out and out winger in a 4-4-2, Mourinho made him a much stronger defensive player later on, but don't think he'd have been a real wing back option.

Given

Egan
Cunningham
Collins

Kilbane
Keane
Holland
Duff
Finnan

Quinn
Keane

Duff in a good old fashioned "free" role, roving across the middle, drifting wide with Keane and Holland giving the rock solid centre to free him up. Kilbane for the work rate over Harte (I'll never forget how shocked I was at his positional sense the first time seeing him live). Quinn because he could still cause havoc and his relationship with Keane was so strong, Ferguson rotating with him off the bench. Obafemi as the wildcard. Ogbene for his attitude and versatility, I think Stephens is still a better wingback than McClean, or any of the other options if he's fit (that being rare lately, so he's there by a thread). Kiely was an excellent keeper and playing regularly as far as I can recall at the time, I think he'd have gotten in the squad ahead of Kelleher.

[elatedscum]

There are other players where you look to minimise their deficiencies, Duff is the complete opposite of that
He's the kind of player you'd build a team around, to get the absolute maximum from his talents

That was what Brian Kerr said he was trying to do. Definitely gave him 'a free role' a few times, basically as a Number 10

[Supreme feet]

GK - Given

RB - Finnan
CB - Cunningham
CB - Collins
LB - Harte

RM - McAteer
CM - Roy Keane
CM - Cullen
LM - Duff

CF - Robbie Keane
CF - Morrison

Subs: Bazunu, Kiely; Doherty, D. O'Shea, Egan, G. Kelly; Kilbane, S. Reid, Holland, Kinsella; Quinn, Obafemi.

If we were playing the World Cup final tomorrow, that's what I'd pick. You'd have to go with top-flight experience, lads who played against internationals week-in, week-out, and had been part of a successful qualifying campaign, and done it against the likes of Portugal and Holland.

Cunningham was very hard-done-by to lose out to Staunton in that WC, imo, and would be a good foil for Collins. Finnan is nailed on. Harte for his set pieces and the paucity of better defensive options. Cullen just about gets in over Holland, though I'd be tempted to try Steven Reid beside Keane for the box-to-box athleticism and power he had back then, and the freedom Keane would allow him to get forward and unleash his cannon of a right foot. McAteer gets in on his form/goals in qualifying. Morrison over all of our current strikers, he'd scored over 60 career goals in the First Division before that World Cup, aged 23; Quinn didn't have 90 minutes in him, and Duff was much better on the left.

So, a 9-2 split in the starting lineup, and 16-7 in favour of 2002, with some recency bias. I think that just about reflects where we are now. 2002 wasn't a limited squad that fluked its way to the last sixteen. It was a very talented, experienced, tough, well-balanced group, well into its development, with several elite-level players, and others with elite club-level and prior WC experience.

[tetsujin1979]

Goalkeepers
Shay Given – 26 – Newcastle
Dean Kiely – 31 – Charlton
Gavin Bazunu – 20 – Southampton

Centre Backs
Kenny Cunningham – 30 – Wimbledon
Andy O’Brien – 22 – Newcastle
John Egan – 30 – Sheffield United
Gary Breen – 28 – Coventry City

Left Backs
Ian Harte – 24 – Leeds
Steve Staunton – 33 – Aston Villa

Right Backs
Steve Finnan – 26 – Fulham
Seamus Coleman – 34 – Everton

Centre Mids
Roy Keane – 30 – Manchester United
Matt Holland – 28 – Ipswich Town
Josh Cullen – 26 – Burnley
Steven Reid – 21 – Milwall

Left Wing
Damien Duff – 23 – Blackburn
Kevin Kilbane – 25 – Sunderland

Right Wing
Jason McAteer – 30 – Sunderland
Callum Robinson – 27 Cardiff

Centre Forwards
Robbie Keane – 21 – Leeds
Niall Quinn – 35 – Sunderland
Michael Obafemi – 22 – Swansea
Clinton Morrison – 23 – Crystal Palace

Gone with a mixture of youth an experience across the squad. Cullen over Kinsella and one from Obafemi/Parrott/Connolly was the only real difficult decision
Cheated a little by moving Staunton from central defence to left full, but he can cover both positions

Team
StartingXI
              Given
Finnan Cunningham O’Brien Harte
Robinson Keane    Holland Duff
         Keane Morrison

Substitutes
Kiely, Bazunu, Egan, Breen, Staunton, Coleman, Cullen, Reid, , Kilbane, McAteer, Quinn, Morrison

Still not sure about Egan or O'Brien, but I thought Egan and Cunningham would be caught for pace