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Thread: Historical squad comparison

  1. #21
    First Team Jd2793's Avatar
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    different game now , very hard to compare imo. always rated ian harte think he would have done a job in todays game though

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    The formation we use is certainly different so there’s a case to be made there. But has the international game evolved to the same degree as the Club game though ?? I’m not so sure.

    Harte had his strengths and weaknesses. He wasn’t the most transferable player, in terms of his suitability across many teams. But if the right players were in a first eleven with him he was a real asset. He needed pacey legs and some babysitting around him.

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    Harte was among the better left backs in the premier league. He was one of the better players in a team that reached the champions league semi-final. If fit, Finnan and Carr are your right backs. Could maybe shoehorn Doherty into left back - but that’s kinda the point. We’re considering how our best players might make the edges of the squad. We’d definitely get one keeper in the squad along with Given and Kiely. Maybe you pick Obafemi up top for his pace ahead of Morrison or Connolly. So you probably end up with maybe 5 squad members. A centre back, Doherty, Obafemi (or Ferguson) and a keeper and one other.

    Even that squad’s young and promising players: Keane, Duff and Reid were better than our equivalents

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    Quote Originally Posted by dr_peepee View Post
    To quote Game of Thrones….. “Oh you sweet summer child”

    That’s seeped in regency bias and clearly too young you have digested the calibre of players they were in 2002.

    The player Collins could eventually become, could get in.

    Or the player Coleman was, might challenge. Keeping in mind we had the 3 best right backs in England in our squads for the campaign. (Carrs injury notwithstanding). But if we’re doing a point in time comparison of today versus summer 2002 I’d probably only take Evan Ferguson ahead of the Clint as wild card gamble. At that point Clinton was only with us a short time and not in the team.
    It's clear that you're suffering from the opposite of what you state there. Looking at the past with green tinted glasses. Finnan was full back for Fulham, Kelly in and out at Leeds. They were not in the top 2 full backs in the premier league.

    John Egan would get ahead of either Breen or Staunton. In fact I don't think either of them would make our current squad!

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    Quote Originally Posted by elatedscum View Post
    Harte was among the better left backs in the premier league. He was one of the better players in a team that reached the champions league semi-final. If fit, Finnan and Carr are your right backs. Could maybe shoehorn Doherty into left back - but that’s kinda the point. We’re considering how our best players might make the edges of the squad. We’d definitely get one keeper in the squad along with Given and Kiely. Maybe you pick Obafemi up top for his pace ahead of Morrison or Connolly. So you probably end up with maybe 5 squad members. A centre back, Doherty, Obafemi (or Ferguson) and a keeper and one other.

    Even that squad’s young and promising players: Keane, Duff and Reid were better than our equivalents
    Keane and Duff are the only big differences really. I'd say the rest are equal enough. As I said, you'd probably pick 4 of our current lot ahead of the centre backs then. You'd pick Coleman over Finnan, Harte/Doherty is 50/50 like Kilbane/McClean but you'd probably pick Doherty ahead of Kelly in right midfield. You'd have Cullen and either Holland or Kinsella and then Keane and Duff up front. So:

    Given
    Coleman Collins Egan Harte
    Doherty Cullen Kinsella McClean
    Keane Duff

    That makes 5 2002 players v 6 current players in my opinion.

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    Seasoned Pro irishfan86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA View Post
    It's clear that you're suffering from the opposite of what you state there. Looking at the past with green tinted glasses. Finnan was full back for Fulham, Kelly in and out at Leeds. They were not in the top 2 full backs in the premier league.

    John Egan would get ahead of either Breen or Staunton. In fact I don't think either of them would make our current squad!
    In the season leading up to the 2002 World Cup, Finnan was a key man in a Fulham side which got promoted and stayed up (finishing 13th). Kelly was "in and out" of a team that finished fifth in the league. Steve Staunton was a virtual ever present for an Aston Villa team which finished eighth.

    John Egan, a guy I rate, has largely spent his peak years fighting relegation or fighting for promotion. In that sense I don't think his story is much different than Gary Breen's, so I suppose they're a comparable but wouldn't put one miles ahead of the other.
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  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA View Post
    It's clear that you're suffering from the opposite of what you state there. Looking at the past with green tinted glasses. Finnan was full back for Fulham, Kelly in and out at Leeds. They were not in the top 2 full backs in the premier league.

    John Egan would get ahead of either Breen or Staunton. In fact I don't think either of them would make our current squad!
    Finnan was the full back in the 2001/02 team of the season - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001%E...#Annual_awards
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    Was gonna say the same thing.

    Finnan was the premier league right back of the season in 01/02 (having won the same award in the championship the season before)

    It was that form that had him sign for Liverpool a season later where he went on to get 200 games for Liverpool and win the champions league. You’re not convincing me that a 34 year old Seamus Coleman or any Seamus Coleman for that matter would play ahead of him.

    Given was the keeper of the season and Roy was centre midfield in that team. We had 3 of the best players in the league in our squad. That’s an expression of the quality.

    Even David Connolly, who we were debating about replacing, he scored 18 league goals just before the World Cup and 24 just after. We probably haven’t had a 20 goal a season striker in the championship since Shane Long did it as a 24 year old

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  13. #29
    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA View Post
    I think McCarthy's squad was probably our weakest squad of this century but he still had some decent players to pick.
    Not objectively true in my opinion. You and I have actually gone over and back on this before. not expecting a different outcome!

    https://foot.ie/threads/240390-Steph...=1#post2125755
    Last edited by SkStu; 27/01/2023 at 2:00 AM.

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    Weirdly our last mini golden generation was the team from 1992. They were the team that got to the semi final of the u19s before being beaten by a very good Spain team.

    That year produced Doherty, Christie, Egan, Duffy, Williams, Hendrick, Brady, Horgan, Hogan - along with Forrester and McCarey who received call ups without getting caps and Carruthers who was a potential star that didn’t pan out.

    A collective 314 caps.

    You can add up all the caps of all the players who played in 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2004 (no one capped from 2003) - and you know what it equals? 314

    The reality is, those players are now 30/31, whereas they were 26-27 under Mick. So he had a group of established internationals in their prime and Kenny now has them all a few years later on.

    Boomer is trying to make the point that Kenny basically had everyone Mick had except McGoldrick, plus he has a new crop of young players - but the reality is, that group from 1992, plus the likes of Coleman, McClean, Long, Whelan, Randolph etc etc - they’re all either past it or somewhat on a downward trajectory.

    You’d hope that in a few years time, that Kelleher, Bazunu, Omobamidele, Collins, O’Shea, Cullen, Hodge, Knight, Obafemi, Ferguson, Parrott, Idah and Connolly are all premier league regulars and we can look back at this moment as the last moment before they all truly arrived.

    But right now, the consistent quality just isn’t there. Robinson has a good year and then he regresses. Ogbene makes the breakthrough and then we can’t really use him in our system. Obafemi looks great and then he falls off a cliff at club level. It’s been 2 steps forward, 1 step back for all our players.

    Sometimes you just need a player or two to change everything - add Rice and Grealish to that group and suddenly it’s a really strong Irish side. To me that suddenly becomes a side that could really compete in a way that we haven’t in 20 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by irishfan86 View Post
    In the season leading up to the 2002 World Cup, Finnan was a key man in a Fulham side which got promoted and stayed up (finishing 13th). Kelly was "in and out" of a team that finished fifth in the league. Steve Staunton was a virtual ever present for an Aston Villa team which finished eighth.

    John Egan, a guy I rate, has largely spent his peak years fighting relegation or fighting for promotion. In that sense I don't think his story is much different than Gary Breen's, so I suppose they're a comparable but wouldn't put one miles ahead of the other.
    You're missing the point. The game has changed since then. Not only is there a far wider network in scouting and signing players, South America, Asia etc but the standard of players in the UK has increased as well due to improved academies and so forth.

    So Finnan wouldn't have been getting a move to Liverpool. Staunton would be in the championship, same with Breen and others like Kinsella and Holland. But I'll get onto the Finnan point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    Finnan was the full back in the 2001/02 team of the season - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001%E...#Annual_awards
    Ok, I called Finnan wrong! I thought it was after the World Cup where he upped it big time. So we'll have Finnan in instead of Coleman. Over their careers though, I think it would be a tight call.

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    You have to take account of the standard of the Premier League in 2002 Vs today also. John Egan is a regular at a mid table Premier league team in 2002 I would say. Today he's a player who yoyos between the top two divisions. From the current squad I'd say at least 10 would have made that 02 squad. What the 2002 squad had though was a number of standout players - Keane x 2, Duff, Finnan, Carr (I know Roy Keane and Carr didn't make the WC but they were heavily involved in qualification). Having two or three of that standard of player makes a huge difference at international level and can mask a lot of mediocrity in the rest of the team - just look at Wales 2015-2022 as a recent example. The current squad doesn't have that sprinkling of star quality, at least not yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Not objectively true in my opinion. You and I have actually gone over and back on this before. not expecting a different outcome!

    https://foot.ie/threads/240390-Steph...=1#post2125755
    It is objectively true because your point was very simplistic then and it still is. You're changing players quality based on where their club team plays. That's ridiculous. For example, Egan is on his way to get promoted, will he be a better player in a few months time because he's back in the premier league? If Collins gets relegated, he suddenly becomes a worse player? Nonsense. Kenny had practically the same squad as McCarthy but he also had numerous young players coming through. Bazunu, Kelleher, Collins, Omobamidele, O Shea, Cullen (Anderlecht move), Molumby, Knight, Idah, Obefami (makes a return). Objectively, Kenny clearly had a superior squad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elatedscum View Post
    The reality is, those players are now 30/31, whereas they were 26-27 under Mick. So he had a group of established internationals in their prime and Kenny now has them all a few years later on.

    Boomer is trying to make the point that Kenny basically had everyone Mick had except McGoldrick, plus he has a new crop of young players - but the reality is, that group from 1992, plus the likes of Coleman, McClean, Long, Whelan, Randolph etc etc - they’re all either past it or somewhat on a downward trajectory.
    Another ridiculous post. Kenny was in charge and playing matches with nearly all the same players a year later. So if you're saying they were 26-27 under Mick then they were 27-28 year olds under Kenny. That is their prime! These days players prime is till they're 30! Honestly, your post is laughable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eirambler View Post
    You have to take account of the standard of the Premier League in 2002 Vs today also. John Egan is a regular at a mid table Premier league team in 2002 I would say. Today he's a player who yoyos between the top two divisions. From the current squad I'd say at least 10 would have made that 02 squad. What the 2002 squad had though was a number of standout players - Keane x 2, Duff, Finnan, Carr (I know Roy Keane and Carr didn't make the WC but they were heavily involved in qualification). Having two or three of that standard of player makes a huge difference at international level and can mask a lot of mediocrity in the rest of the team - just look at Wales 2015-2022 as a recent example. The current squad doesn't have that sprinkling of star quality, at least not yet.
    Finally someone talking sense. Yeah, the 02 team had those few exceptional players who raised the standard of the rest. We have to hope that some of our new crop can reach somewhere close to that level but getting into a champions league standard team is far more difficult now as you point out. Look at the money in the premier league, low ranking clubs are spending huge money and buying players globally.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elatedscum View Post
    We’re considering how our best players might make the edges of the squad.
    That's how I'd see it alright.

    Our current Premier League players are bad ones. Bazunu has the worst stats of any keeper in the league (bar Travers, I guess, who has played fewer games), Coleman is struggling against relegation and is sadly past his peak. Collins is also battling the drop, although I think he's a stronger performer for his team than Coleman. Doherty is a bit-part player for a good side - our highest-profile player though, if you discount Kelleher. Ferguson has played five games this season - definitely showing promise, but then so did Idah, Connolly and Parrott three years ago and look at them now. Yes, the Premier League has strengthened in 20 years, but I don't see that players who were in the team of the season or challenging for honours then would be relegation fodder now.

    We've no really solid spine like Given/Dunne/Duff/Keane gave us for years, and that makes a huge difference.

    And the usual caveat about having lots of young players now and you don't know what they'll be like in 4-5 years' time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA View Post
    Another ridiculous post. Kenny was in charge and playing matches with nearly all the same players a year later. So if you're saying they were 26-27 under Mick then they were 27-28 year olds under Kenny. That is their prime! These days players prime is till they're 30! Honestly, your post is laughable.
    I’m comparing the squad Mick had with the one Kenny has now. If you want to say that the squad Mick had in his last game was the worst we ever had but the squad Kenny took over a few months later was suddenly much better, then fair enough. Makes no sense but fair enough.

    Answer me honestly:

    Seamus Coleman - past his best?
    Jeff Hendrick - past his best?
    Shane Duffy - past his best?
    Matt Doherty - past his best?
    Robbie Brady - past his best?
    Glenn Whelan - past his best?
    John Egan - past his best?
    James McClean - past his best?
    David McGoldrick - past his best?
    Shane Long - past his best?
    Cyrus Christie - past his best?
    Darren Randolph - past his best?

    The only people you could even begin to debate are Doherty and Egan. And for both them, there’s valid arguments for and against.

    We have a batch of young players mostly born between 2000 and 2002 who we hope will become key for us. As they get better, the lads listed above get worse. Due to a myriad of reasons (maybe bar Collins), the young lads have struggled recently:

    Bazunu - difficult first season in the premier league
    Omobamidele - injuries
    Parrott - struggled on loan and with injury
    Idah - horrific injuries
    Knight - wasting a season in league 1
    Obafemi - losing momentum with the Swansea debacle
    Connolly - went off the rails
    Smallbone - serious injury

    You’d back the majority to come good over the next few years but right now the development of the young players is lagging behind what we’re losing.

    As for the other argument, Obviously the league is a better league now than it was then. But in terms of a worldwide league, 1992 would hold true much more. Wenger revolutionised everything. by 2002, clubs were already really international. Just thinking of the lads who played at that World Cup, Liverpool signed Diouf and Diao from Senegal during the World Cup, Folran was at United, along with Veron. Lucas Radabe was captain of South Africa and Leeds. China’s best player Sun jihai was playing for city, who also had Costa Rica’s Paulo Wanchope there. A handful of USA players were playing there at the time. The African cup of nations champions, Cameroon, the team we played against had Lauren a key Arsenal player, along with Mettomo, Suffo, Mboma, and guys like Song who had already been to Liverpool and left. Nigeria had Kanu, Okocha and West. That’s just some of the non-EU lads. Overall the premier league was the most represented league at the World Cup…

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  27. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by elatedscum View Post
    I’m comparing the squad Mick had with the one Kenny has now. If you want to say that the squad Mick had in his last game was the worst we ever had but the squad Kenny took over a few months later was suddenly much better, then fair enough. Makes no sense but fair enough.
    I'm not going to quote the long post as it's mostly waffle. You said Mick had players in their prime, those players were 27/28 year olds when Kenny took over and still in their prime according to you. The reason I say that Kenny's squad was better was because of the long list of players who emerged. I've already listed some of them. Would you like me to give you a full list?

    It's a pity that this thread has been hijacked by the ultra sensitive pro Kenny faction, I thought it was interesting to compare squads from the past and present.

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    2002 was a much better squad. Matter what way you look at it
    21 year old john o Shea didn't make that WC squad. He would start in this team ahead of Dara I would think

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