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Thread: Foreign born but were only ever going to play for Ireland

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    How can we know for certain unless we know that they categorically turned down offers from other Countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanfhear View Post
    How can we know for certain unless we know that they categorically turned down offers from other Countries.
    I don't think we can ever really know with absolute certainty, though I believe it's fairly safe to assume that the likes of McGrath and O'Leary identify most strongly, or even exclusively, as Irish and would only have ever have played for Ireland.

    And Breen and McLoughlin, for example, actually did turn down England call-ups in order to play for Ireland. There can't be a great deal of doubt in their cases.

    https://www.irishpost.com/sport/form...cup-title-8780

    https://www.balls.ie/football/alan-m...ational-468793

    McGeady and McCarthy are granny-rulers who, in rare and fleeting instances of FAI competence, were identified and brought into the Irish set-up in early on whilst still in their early teens.

    McGeady clearly states in the video posted, and other interviews, that Ireland chose him rather than the other way way round, offering him a chance to play international football when Scotland couldn't, and by the time the SFA did eventually contact him he was already comfortable within the Irish set-up. And, let's face it; unlike the Grealish/Rice situations, it wasn't as if the Scots could offer him vastly greater riches or a far better opportunity of playing in/winning tournaments than Ireland. Perhaps revealingly he also seems to identify as Scottish when talking about 'other Scottish players' like Scott Arter and Brian McLean playing for nations other than Scotland.

    The fact that McGeady's half-Irish, Celtic-supporting dad bought him an Ireland jersey as a kid doesn't necessarily count for an awful lot - I believe there's a picture of a young Jude Bellingham wearing an Ireland shirt that's been doing the rounds on social media recently. Ex-Celtic Scottish internationals Tony Watt and Mikey Johnston have also been seen in Irish jerseys before.

    James McCarthy is a quarter Irish through his Irish grandfather, but has explicitly stated that he would definitely have played for Scotland had they asked him first:

    "If they had come in for me first I would definitely have played for Scotland,” McCarthy says. “But the way they [the SFA] put it to me [in 2006] was, well, we're not going to take you on just now, because you are not good enough.' Then Ireland came over and watched me in a game and immediately said to me, would you like to play in a game against Italy?' I said, yeh' cos I was just happy to get an international call-up. That was for their under-17s."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/j...se-tlllf26p0vl

    In any event, whether we were always first choice for a dual-eligibility player or not is it something I've ever been able to get really hung up over.

    Tony Cascarino and Chiedozie Ogbene have no familial ties to Ireland whatever and have only been able to play for us due to the laxness and exploitability of FIFA's eligibility rules. But they've proved great additions, and can never have been said to have been anything less than 100 per cent commited any time they pulled on the green shirt.
    Last edited by Trequartista20; 22/09/2022 at 3:36 PM.

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    I dunno it would be strange if Ogbene couldn't play for Ireland.
    Also was McCarthy not a prodigy? Scotland turning him down doesn't seem to square with his wonderkid reputation.

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    McCarthy was a wonderkind. Liverpool tried everything to sign him at 16. Was believed to be a really special player. Best young midfielder across England Scotland etc.

    What I heard was, at age 12 or something, he promised his grandfather who he was really close to that he’d play for Ireland if he was good enough. Think his grandfather died before he could make his debut (but could be wrong about that)

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  6. #45
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    James had plenty of opportunity and appeals to switch to Scotland before he became fully tied to Ireland (covered in 50 pages in his thread?). Regardless of how it transpired around his original choice of Ireland, he was more than content enough with that choice to refuse the many compelling requests to switch to the land of his birth, Scotland.
    His story is probably true of many others, there's some undefined connection in the beginning which evolves over time into full blown commitment and appropriate identity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trequartista20 View Post
    I don't think we can ever really know with absolute certainty, though I believe it's fairly safe to assume that the likes of McGrath and O'Leary identify most strongly, or even exclusively, as Irish and would only have ever have played for Ireland.

    And Breen and McLoughlin, for example, actually did turn down England call-ups in order to play for Ireland. There can't be a great deal of doubt in their cases.

    https://www.irishpost.com/sport/form...cup-title-8780

    https://www.balls.ie/football/alan-m...ational-468793

    McGeady and McCarthy are granny-rulers who, in rare and fleeting instances of FAI competence, were identified and brought into the Irish set-up in early on whilst still in their early teens.

    McGeady clearly states in the video posted, and other interviews, that Ireland chose him rather than the other way way round, offering him a chance to play international football when Scotland couldn't, and by the time the SFA did eventually contact him he was already comfortable within the Irish set-up. And, let's face it; unlike the Grealish/Rice situations, it wasn't as if the Scots could offer him vastly greater riches or a far better opportunity of playing in/winning tournaments than Ireland. Perhaps revealingly he also seems to identify as Scottish when talking about 'other Scottish players' like Scott Arter and Brian McLean playing for nations other than Scotland.

    The fact that McGeady's half-Irish, Celtic-supporting dad bought him an Ireland jersey as a kid doesn't necessarily count for an awful lot - I believe there's a picture of a young Jude Bellingham wearing an Ireland shirt that's been doing the rounds on social media recently. Ex-Celtic Scottish internationals Tony Watt and Mikey Johnston have also been seen in Irish jerseys before.

    James McCarthy is a quarter Irish through his Irish grandfather, but has explicitly stated that he would definitely have played for Scotland had they asked him first:

    "If they had come in for me first I would definitely have played for Scotland,” McCarthy says. “But the way they [the SFA] put it to me [in 2006] was, well, we're not going to take you on just now, because you are not good enough.' Then Ireland came over and watched me in a game and immediately said to me, would you like to play in a game against Italy?' I said, yeh' cos I was just happy to get an international call-up. That was for their under-17s."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/j...se-tlllf26p0vl

    In any event, whether we were always first choice for a dual-eligibility player or not is it something I've ever been able to get really hung up over.

    Tony Cascarino and Chiedozie Ogbene have no familial ties to Ireland whatever and have only been able to play for us due to the laxness and exploitability of FIFA's eligibility rules. But they've proved great additions, and can never have been said to have been anything less than 100 per cent commited any time they pulled on the green shirt.
    Ogbene moved to Ireland when he was 8. I think living here and growing up here and being schooled here and playing football and gaelic football all adds up to a little more than exploitation of FIFA's eligibility rules. That's a fairly ridiculous assertion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elatedscum View Post
    McCarthy was a wonderkind. Liverpool tried everything to sign him at 16. Was believed to be a really special player. Best young midfielder across England Scotland etc.

    What I heard was, at age 12 or something, he promised his grandfather who he was really close to that he’d play for Ireland if he was good enough. Think his grandfather died before he could make his debut (but could be wrong about that)
    That's how the story goes. And are we sure he is only "a quarter Irish"? The grandfather referred to in the above is his maternal grandfather after all!

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    Cascarino’s grandfather was an O’Malley from Ireland (Mayo I think).
    He didn’t realise his mother was actually adopted and so when he found out figured he didn’t qualify any more.
    But I think that actually does qualify him. I think McGoldrick had a similar story before realising he still qualified anyway when he discovered his birth mother…don’t quote me on that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixer82 View Post
    Cascarino’s grandfather was an O’Malley from Ireland (Mayo I think).
    He didn’t realise his mother was actually adopted and so when he found out figured he didn’t qualify any more.
    But I think that actually does qualify him. I think McGoldrick had a similar story before realising he still qualified anyway when he discovered his birth mother…don’t quote me on that
    You are correct. McGoldrick was adopted by the McGoldricks who had an Irish background and he states that he grew up supporting Ireland as a result but thought he didn't qualify because he knew he was adopted. Then he met his biological mother who told him that she had an Irish parent/grandparent and it all came together.

    Not sure if it qualifies (I think adoption does as you say) but Cascarino used that line to sell books didn't he?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olé Olé View Post
    You are correct. McGoldrick was adopted by the McGoldricks who had an Irish background and he states that he grew up supporting Ireland as a result but thought he didn't qualify because he knew he was adopted. Then he met his biological mother who told him that she had an Irish parent/grandparent and it all came together.
    But does adoption not qualify you also?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixer82 View Post
    But does adoption not qualify you also?
    Despite Not being legally qualified myself ~ ~ I would have thought that an adopted child would have the same rights as a biological child ~ ~ Surely that’s what the legal stuff about adoption would be about.

    Was Cascarino just using this ~ ~ ” supposedly amusing angle “ as a Hook to sell his book and to launch his media career ?

    If he did = = It worked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanfhear View Post
    Despite Not being legally qualified myself ~ ~ I would have thought that an adopted child would have the same rights as a biological child ~ ~ Surely that’s what the legal stuff about adoption would be about.

    Was Cascarino just using this ~ ~ ” supposedly amusing angle “ as a Hook to sell his book and to launch his media career ?

    If he did = = It worked.
    thats what i thought at the time. I didn't read the relevant chapter in his book in protest!
    rest of the book was good though

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixer82 View Post
    Cascarino’s grandfather was an O’Malley from Ireland (Mayo I think).
    He didn’t realise his mother was actually adopted and so when he found out figured he didn’t qualify any more.
    But I think that actually does qualify him. I think McGoldrick had a similar story before realising he still qualified anyway when he discovered his birth mother…don’t quote me on that
    Interesting.

    I read Cascarino's autobiography when it first came out and at least once since. It's incredibly honest, often brutally so. He's very open about his flaws and shortcomings both as a player and as a husband and father.

    It's definitely one of the best sports biographies I've read, and I've read a lot.

    In it he says 'I didn't qualify to play for Ireland...I was a fraud. A fake Irishman'. Though it later transpired adoption would have been enough to qualify him, I'd always believed there wasn't a genuine blood-tie to Ireland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olé Olé View Post
    Ogbene moved to Ireland when he was 8. I think living here and growing up here and being schooled here and playing football and gaelic football all adds up to a little more than exploitation of FIFA's eligibility rules. That's a fairly ridiculous assertion.
    You seem to have missed my main point, which is that I don't think it matters all that much whether a player grew dreaming of playing for Ireland and whether we were his first choice, as long as he is committed and does his best on the pitch. I was simply using Ogbene as an offhand example.

    I don't doubt Ogbene feels a genuine affinity for Ireland, but the point is that he was neither born in Ireland nor does he have any historical ties to the country. It is FIFA who ultimately decides on the eligibility of a player and whether he qualifies to play for Ireland, and these rules are often subject to revision and change. What school a player goes to and whether he's ever played gaelic football doesn't have a great deal of bearing on the matter. I don't think this is a 'ridiculous assertion'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trequartista20 View Post
    Interesting.

    I read Cascarino's autobiography when it first came out and at least once since. It's incredibly honest, often brutally so. He's very open about his flaws and shortcomings both as a player and as a husband and father.

    It's definitely one of the best sports biographies I've read, and I've read a lot.

    In it he says 'I didn't qualify to play for Ireland...I was a fraud. A fake Irishman'. Though it later transpired adoption would have been enough to qualify him, I'd always believed there wasn't a genuine blood-tie to Ireland.
    Surely ~ Legal adoption would make a blood tie, moot / not necessary / irrelevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanfhear View Post
    Surely ~ Legal adoption would make a blood tie, moot / not necessary / irrelevant.
    I'm not sure. Legally speaking an adoptive parent or guardian is to all intents and purposes the same as a biological parent, certainly as far as eligibility is concerned, I'd imagine.

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    Under the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956, if a child who is not an Irish citizen is adopted by an Irish citizen or a couple where either spouse is an Irish citizen, then the adopted child shall be an Irish citizen.

    If an Irish citizen who is living abroad adopts a child abroad, they should apply for the adoption to be entered in the Register of Intercountry Adoptions. Once it is registered, the adoption has the same legal status as if the adoption was made in the State.

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...nt.html#le962d

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    Quote Originally Posted by JR89 View Post
    Under the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956, if a child who is not an Irish citizen is adopted by an Irish citizen or a couple where either spouse is an Irish citizen, then the adopted child shall be an Irish citizen.

    If an Irish citizen who is living abroad adopts a child abroad, they should apply for the adoption to be entered in the Register of Intercountry Adoptions. Once it is registered, the adoption has the same legal status as if the adoption was made in the State.

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...nt.html#le962d
    So then Cascarino wasn't a fraud at all.
    Also, growing up with his Grandad I would say gave him a sense of Irishness that many others who've lined out for us in the past didn't have.
    Folding my way into the big money!!!

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    The only part of the Cascarino story that was a fraud was that he used his claim that he wasn't Irish qualified to sell his book. Which is a shame as the book was good enough to sell itself without the lie (I'd recommend any Irish supporter that hasn't read it picks it up).

    But it was always obvious that Cascarino qualified to play for Ireland. The issue of adoption has no bearing on national eligibility.

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    Tony Galvin would only play for Ireland as Chris Hughton, too

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