League of Ireland player quality comparison discussion

[ontheotherhand]

Realistically it needs to be followed up by rovers beating shkupi. Last year they were champions and seemed to not have the ambition. This time i hope the result against the bulgarians and their relative cushion in the league shud galvanise them.
Losing this one might actually mean a tougher draw in the ecl.

One thing not mentioned here in this discussion is call ups to Ireland. I distinctly recall dundalk good year in the group stages leading to alot of positive vibes and at least one call up and 2 or 3 transfers to decent clubs, or Keith fahey versus hertha berlin for pats.

kenny as ireland manager, you imagine fai notwithstanding, would hardly overlook players etc standing out.
playing well in the group stages deepens players experience, highers their profile and improves the quality overall.

I was thinking the same. From the 00s we had Crowe. in the 10s we've had (I think) Byrne, McEneff and Burke? I don't remember a Dundalk player getting called up while at Dundalk but Horgan obviously did fairly soon after. Or do I have that wrong? We've also had the national side in decline so it's hard to use call ups as a measure. I don't think the best players in the league now are any worse than the ones in the 00s though.

Transfer wise I'd say it's even enough? Lately more talent seems to be going but it's all changed in terms of where they are going so again, hard to use it as a measure.

[pineapple stu]

Jason Byrne was capped twice at Shels too.

For me, Byrne and Crowe are ahead of any forwards the 10s produced - McMillan, Maguire, Hoban, Kelly. I think it's been a weakness of the LoI in recent years (and just when the national team could do with a decent forward)

There was more LoI players from the 00s who made an impact on the national team though, including the eight in the Euro 2016 squad (and Stevens/McClean/Coleman still key players). Even with a weakened national team, I don't think the LoI has had as much input in recent years. Obviously there's time for that to change yet

[ontheotherhand]

Jason Byrne was capped twice at Shels too.

For me, Byrne and Crowe are ahead of any forwards the 10s produced - McMillan, Maguire, Hoban, Kelly. I think it's been a weakness of the LoI in recent years (and just when the national team could do with a decent forward)

There was more LoI players from the 00s who made an impact on the national team though, including the eight in the Euro 2016 squad (and Stevens/McClean/Coleman still key players). Even with a weakened national team, I don't think the LoI has had as much input in recent years. Obviously there's time for that to change yet

Hold the phone, Gary Twigg would like a word.

Maguire has a fairly good claim to be at least as good. More caps, plays at a higher level than either ever did.

But football doesn't produce many out and out strikers anywhere these days so I don't know if we can compare strikers then to strikers now either way. We train players to be all round technical players, not poachers who know hot to bully and harass defenders. Wasn't that covered on LoI Central recently?

Good point on the players provided to the national side but Stevens was 10s. Bazunu?

We are probably in new thread territory here to be honest.

Back to the draw. Great for Rovers in the ECL, ****e in the EL. Beating Skhupi still our best chance. Will be tricky but if we can do a job at home I think we can see it out over there.

[Nesta99]

I was thinking the same. From the 00s we had Crowe. in the 10s we've had (I think) Byrne, McEneff and Burke? I don't remember a Dundalk player getting called up while at Dundalk but Horgan obviously did fairly soon after. Or do I have that wrong? We've also had the national side in decline so it's hard to use call ups as a measure. I don't think the best players in the league now are any worse than the ones in the 00s though.

Transfer wise I'd say it's even enough? Lately more talent seems to be going but it's all changed in terms of where they are going so again, hard to use it as a measure.

Gary Rogers is the only one I think.

Capped after Dundalk - McGrath, Horgan as mentioned and Maguire via Cork. Was Boyle called up? Almost painful but Nattestad, Jurkovskis and ages back Chevdukas to their national sides.

[pineapple stu]

Hold the phone, Gary Twigg would like a word.

Maguire has a fairly good claim to be at least as good. More caps, plays at a higher level than either ever did.

But football doesn't produce many out and out strikers anywhere these days so I don't know if we can compare strikers then to strikers now either way. We train players to be all round technical players, not poachers who know hot to bully and harass defenders. Wasn't that covered on LoI Central recently?

Good point on the players provided to the national side but Stevens was 10s. Bazunu?

We are probably in new thread territory here to be honest.

Twigg maybe alright - I tend to discount him cos he's Scottish so he was never of interest for the national team I guess!

Byrne played at the same level Maguire did (Championship) and I've rate him and Crowe higher tbh. He was a bit unlucky in that Cardiff signed Fowler and Hasselbaink at the same time. Was top scorer for the reserves but came back to the LoI - probably helped that it was tax-free income at the time, which I think might have gone now? I seem to remember Glen Crowe retiring a bit early in order to get his tax back.

Enda Stevens was really a product of the 00s - made his debut in that decade and left then as the money dried up (same as McClean). For the 10s, you've Bazunu since of course - and Manning, Ogbene, Horgan, McGrath and Curtis from recent squads. Most of those aren't great at international level. From the 00s, you had Stevens, McClean, Coleman, Long, Doyle, Murphy, Quinn, Hoolahan, Ward, Meyler, Forde, the quite superb Conor Sammon, even Matt Doherty (though he never actually played LoI and probably shouldn't be counted). I think that's a significant gap in class.

Agree it should be a different thread alright; I've reported a post to see if the mods can do that. It's a worthwhile chat though I think.

[pineapple stu]

Capped after Dundalk - [...] Was Boyle called up?

Boyle was capped once - the second half in a drab 1-0 defeat to Iceland around 2017.

[Kiki Balboa]

Jason Byrne was capped twice at Shels too.

For me, Byrne and Crowe are ahead of any forwards the 10s produced - McMillan, Maguire, Hoban, Kelly. I think it's been a weakness of the LoI in recent years (and just when the national team could do with a decent forward)

There was more LoI players from the 00s who made an impact on the national team though, including the eight in the Euro 2016 squad (and Stevens/McClean/Coleman still key players). Even with a weakened national team, I don't think the LoI has had as much input in recent years. Obviously there's time for that to change yet

Always comparing different periods of football is difficult and in a way, pointless.....

Anyways,

First, McMillan is definitley the best LOI striker in European competitions ever. With out a doubt. Very good LOI player too, but his game suited to European games much more than anybody I have ever seen. I think he is only one goal off the all time Irish scorer (not just LOI) in European club competitions. Its a fantastic record of consistency that is not matched.

Maguire had the single greatest seasons (or half seasons) any single player has ever played in the league. Very rare that a single player nearly won the league on his own.

Hoban is a different beast all together. Under-rated totally. He does a huge amount of work outside of the box. A very modern striker.

As for looking at the national team, both Crowe and Byrne only played a couple of minutes of friendly games (hardly a massive endrosment).


You can also look at the most successful managers of the periods:

OOs You had Doolin and Fenlon, based their teams on being work-man like, and really just brought professionalism to the league (all you really needed back then).

Cook, Kenny, O'Neil, and Bradley.... Two went on to become International Managers, Two had successful careers in England, (Apart from O'Neil), all are much more praised for innovating football and playing a more technical game.

[pineapple stu]

Always comparing different periods of football is difficult and in a way, pointless.....

Yet great fun!

Hoban for me falls down because he failed at a low level in England and his European record is poor. I don't think he's up the very top; he's Éamon Dunphy's "big man for the little occasion" for me.

Crowe and Byrne had to get ahead of Robbie Keane, Kevin Doyle, Clinton Morrison, David Connolly, even Gary Doherty. Maybe not huge strength in depth, but there's enough there to keep them out of the national team. I think very few LoI players are really good enough for the national team though, going back to the infamous Pat Byrne case and before.

McMillan and Maguire deserve to be mentioned for sure. Loathe as I am to knock a former UCD player, I think Crowe and Byrne (11 and 10 Euro goals) achieved their tallies in far fewer games than McMillan's 33? if Byrne and Crowe played in every Euro game available, then they scored 8 in 14 for Shels and 8 in 16 for Bohs respectively.

The managers point is quite interesting. I always felt Fenlon and Doolin's teams underachieved, especially in Europe, effectively for the reasons you say. I think that way about Bradley too to an extent (sorry otoh!), but certainly agree on the others being better managers.

[Kiki Balboa]

Yet great fun!

Hoban for me falls down because he failed at a low level in England and his European record is poor. I don't think he's up the very top; he's Éamon Dunphy's "big man for the little occasion" for me.

Crowe and Byrne had to get ahead of Robbie Keane, Kevin Doyle, Clinton Morrison, David Connolly, even Gary Doherty. Maybe not huge strength in depth, but there's enough there to keep them out of the national team. I think very few LoI players are really good enough for the national team though, going back to the infamous Pat Byrne case and before.

McMillan and Maguire deserve to be mentioned for sure. Loathe as I am to knock a former UCD player, I think Crowe and Byrne (11 and 10 Euro goals) achieved their tallies in far fewer games than McMillan's 33? if Byrne and Crowe played in every Euro game available, then they scored 8 in 14 for Shels and 8 in 16 for Bohs respectively.

The managers point is quite interesting. I always felt Fenlon and Doolin's teams underachieved, especially in Europe, effectively for the reasons you say. I think that way about Bradley too to an extent (sorry otoh!), but certainly agree on the others being better managers.

I think its a fair point with Hoban, but I always felt he is a different player than what people think. He said of his time in England he was sterotyped and used wrong, often with a second striker and him pushed out to be a 'big' target man with plenty of high balls to him. He is definitley not a striker that dominates this way. I would say if anything his comp would be Drogba, as opposed to maybe an Andy Carroll type (which he was asked to do). A bit bulls**ty explanation, but Dundalk always built the team around him attacking wise, which obv then got the most out of him. Maybe Jayo Byrne or Crowe were better goalscorers, but I doubt Dundalk would have been as successful with either one instead of Hoban due to what he brings out in other players. Darren Meenan and Kurtis Byrne looked world beaters beside him.


Also, I feel Hoban was hard done by in Europe... Under Perth he was asked to do Donkeys work up front, instead of playing the way he should have been played. Perth was far too conservative in Europe, and Hobans record is a victim to that.


In saying that, he is still going to become the highest ever goalscorer for the second most succesful LOI team. Thats very noteworthy for consistency at least- certainly no slouch. If Crowe or Byrne are better, its by margins.


----
(PS. I will always defend Hoban, the chap is one of the lads you would die for. The chap is a tank, does unreal work on and off the pitch, fairly selfless players, moany {suits Dundalk}, and just all round class player to have. Will go down as one of the best ever Dundalk players)

[ontheotherhand]

Yet great fun!

Hoban for me falls down because he failed at a low level in England and his European record is poor. I don't think he's up the very top; he's Éamon Dunphy's "big man for the little occasion" for me.

Crowe and Byrne had to get ahead of Robbie Keane, Kevin Doyle, Clinton Morrison, David Connolly, even Gary Doherty. Maybe not huge strength in depth, but there's enough there to keep them out of the national team. I think very few LoI players are really good enough for the national team though, going back to the infamous Pat Byrne case and before.

McMillan and Maguire deserve to be mentioned for sure. Loathe as I am to knock a former UCD player, I think Crowe and Byrne (11 and 10 Euro goals) achieved their tallies in far fewer games than McMillan's 33? if Byrne and Crowe played in every Euro game available, then they scored 8 in 14 for Shels and 8 in 16 for Bohs respectively.

The managers point is quite interesting. I always felt Fenlon and Doolin's teams underachieved, especially in Europe, effectively for the reasons you say. I think that way about Bradley too to an extent (sorry otoh!), but certainly agree on the others being better managers.

You've some memory stu, fair play. I'll give you Stevens as a product of the 00s then. That angle does look pretty convincing now in terms of a better class of player coming through back then. Of course all the players mentioned also left because they were standouts but that doesn't mean the players who didn't leave were worse than players these days. Still, I do think the 00s were probably stronger as a whole. When the comparative strength of the league is brought up it's usually intended to diminish the current champions so I actually would be more against the idea that the league was stronger in the 10s than it is now!

I'd also rate Crowe and Byrne higher than Maguire in terms of long term Loi impact ..but still not sure they were better footballers than Maguire. He was gone too early to judge maybe.

On the manager front, we could split the thread again! Bradley's record in Europe is actually pretty good when you compare it to the LoI managers with the most European games. His win percentage is the highest but you have to account for a lot of Kenny's games being in the group stage. Obviously Kenny has the superior European record. But I think Bradley gets a bit of unfair criticism. Some fair too!

This was from Rovers twitter...the stats usually come from Karl Reilly so I'd say they are accurate but I'm open to corrections:

Kenny P 44 W 12 Goals 43
Fenlon P 35 W 11 Goals 43
Buckley P 30 W 11 Goals 23
McLaughlin P 28 W 4 Goals 19
Richardson P26 W 4 Goals 18
Young P 22 W 4 Goals 14
Bradley P 23 W 9 Goals 27

Kenny the standout with a 27% win percentage that takes in the group stages. Fenlon with 31%. Bradley with 39%.

But I still take your point. There have been disappointing results in there. I'd argue not many managers would have been able to cope with the injuries we racked up before the Flora games and there was some bad luck in there at times but he's also made some poor decisions here and there. Some great results and performances too that tend to be forgotten. And the Milan draw was brutal. But if he has a black mark against him it's Europe. His holistic mgmt of the club (with his team) makes up for it for me. But that's for the next thread......


On Hoban....I don't fear Hoban as much as I did Byrne in particular...but he's very, very good. He's up there. Different style of football these days. If he was playing in a team like Byrne's or Crowe's he'd probably be top scorer every year. Burke is also excellent but too injury prone to do enough damage to get into the conversation. If he gets a full season in soon I think he'll hit 20+. Technically one of the best I've seen. Different type of player obviously.

[ontheotherhand]

Suppose a ranking of the best LoI forwards in the past 20 years is on the cards? Probably need two lists, one for impact and one for overall ability......

[ontheotherhand]

Always comparing different periods of football is difficult and in a way, pointless.....

Anyways,

First, McMillan is definitley the best LOI striker in European competitions ever. With out a doubt. Very good LOI player too, but his game suited to European games much more than anybody I have ever seen. I think he is only one goal off the all time Irish scorer (not just LOI) in European club competitions. Its a fantastic record of consistency that is not matched.

Maguire had the single greatest seasons (or half seasons) any single player has ever played in the league. Very rare that a single player nearly won the league on his own.

Hoban is a different beast all together. Under-rated totally. He does a huge amount of work outside of the box. A very modern striker.

As for looking at the national team, both Crowe and Byrne only played a couple of minutes of friendly games (hardly a massive endrosment).


You can also look at the most successful managers of the periods:

OOs You had Doolin and Fenlon, based their teams on being work-man like, and really just brought professionalism to the league (all you really needed back then).

Cook, Kenny, O'Neil, and Bradley.... Two went on to become International Managers, Two had successful careers in England, (Apart from O'Neil), all are much more praised for innovating football and playing a more technical game.

Did you mean Kenny didn't have a successful career in England? O'Neill is doing well. I wouldn't say O'Neill played super technical football. Very tactically astute and a great man manager but the football wasn't always great. But probably more technical than the likes of Doolin definitely.

[pineapple stu]

You've some memory stu, fair play. I'll give you Stevens as a product of the 00s then.

Remember Stevens is ex UCD - we go on about it whenever we can

[outspoken]

If we're talking about great LOI strikers, Dave Mooney needs a mention. Top scorer in the league in 07 despite being relegated with Longford, signed for Cork and went on a ridiculous scoring streak before his move to Reading. Made a good career over in the UK too. What a player. Another one probably unlucky not to get a cap at some stage.

[nigel-harps1954]

Paddy Madden has done alright for himself.

[outspoken]

Paddy Madden has done alright for himself.

Decided to watch the EFL highlighhts on ITV the other night, you wouldn't know him these days with the bald head and beard lol

[total hoofball]

If we're talking about great LOI strikers, Dave Mooney needs a mention. Top scorer in the league in 07 despite being relegated with Longford, signed for Cork and went on a ridiculous scoring streak before his move to Reading. Made a good career over in the UK too. What a player. Another one probably unlucky not to get a cap at some stage.

So good for Longford and Cork in 2007/08 but looking at his goalscoring stats in the UK aside from one season in 2013/14 in league 1 with 19 goals at his peak age he was never particularly prolific over there, not enough goals came early enough for him in the UK to come near achieving an Ireland cap in that time especially with us having the likes of Keane, Doyle, Long, Walters etc.

[A N Mouse]

On the manager front, we could split the thread again! Bradley's record in Europe is actually pretty good when you compare it to the LoI managers with the most European games. His win percentage is the highest but you have to account for a lot of Kenny's games being in the group stage. Obviously Kenny has the superior European record. But I think Bradley gets a bit of unfair criticism. Some fair too!

This was from Rovers twitter...the stats usually come from Karl Reilly so I'd say they are accurate but I'm open to corrections:

Kenny P 44 W 12 Goals 43
Fenlon P 35 W 11 Goals 43
Buckley P 30 W 11 Goals 23
McLaughlin P 28 W 4 Goals 19
Richardson P26 W 4 Goals 18
Young P 22 W 4 Goals 14
Bradley P 23 W 9 Goals 27

Kenny the standout with a 27% win percentage that takes in the group stages. Fenlon with 31%. Bradley with 39%.

But I still take your point. There have been disappointing results in there. I'd argue not many managers would have been able to cope with the injuries we racked up before the Flora games and there was some bad luck in there at times but he's also made some poor decisions here and there. Some great results and performances too that tend to be forgotten. And the Milan draw was brutal. But if he has a black mark against him it's Europe. His holistic mgmt of the club (with his team) makes up for it for me. But that's for the next thread......

Wonder if these stats are LOI only? Maybe just compare their european records as managers of scottish teams

Mad to think that bohs team that ran away with the league were about 5 mins from a run that could/should have seen Fenlon in EL group stages, and cemented him as best LOI manager in european comp.

Instead no matter his record, he'll be better remembered for the result the following season when they got a more favourable draw. Try not saying it

[Martinho II]

If we're talking about great LOI strikers, Dave Mooney needs a mention. Top scorer in the league in 07 despite being relegated with Longford, signed for Cork and went on a ridiculous scoring streak before his move to Reading. Made a good career over in the UK too. What a player. Another one probably unlucky not to get a cap at some stage.

Yeah for a man of 35 hes now playing with Lucan Mark Rutherford old club. Im surprised that he didnt get a move back to the loi!

[ontheotherhand]

Wonder if these stats are LOI only? Maybe just compare their european records as managers of scottish teams

Mad to think that bohs team that ran away with the league were about 5 mins from a run that could/should have seen Fenlon in EL group stages, and cemented him as best LOI manager in european comp.

Instead no matter his record, he'll be better remembered for the result the following season when they got a more favourable draw. Try not saying it

I believe it's just the managers with the most games in Europe with their respective LoI teams yeah.

And thank you for the fond, fond memories.