Roe v Wade

[seanfhear]

I thought this thread was worth returning to in light of the Cass Report published this month, and the leaked files from WPATH (pdf link) last month. They're both pretty damning on the whole transgender care issue. WPATH are considered best practice in the area, despite having a significant composition of activists, a flagrant conflict of interests - the report says "WPATH is not a medical group", "WPATH is not a scientific group", "WPATH has misled the public", among others.

The immediate obvious outcome is a large-scale international rowing back on routine proscription of puberty blockers for kids identifying as trans - there's little in the way of any research into their effectiveness or side-effects, and it seems they may well lead to infertility and/or cancer down the line (these are unconfirmed links - but of course the point is they haven't been investigated in trials. And the infertility one obviously stands to reason). The WPATH files showed that kids clearly didn't understand the potential ramifications (with regards fertility in particular) of what they were being proscribed, but they were proscribed them anyway. Some of the medical procedures described are frankly nothing more than mutilation -



It again emphasises a strong link between gender dysphoria and various pre-existing psychological issues (autism, depression, brain trauma, etc) -



It refers to a "Transition or suicide myth" -



The Cass Report finds this too -



She more than once cites the toxicity of debate around the matter as unhelpful (we can see that with the way RAM tried to debate the matter earlier in thread actually, but more clearly on Twitter and even from organisations charged with trans care such as Stonewall) -



It looks at the idea (which dahamsta posted here) that only 1-3% of transitioners express regret, let alone want to detransition -



The quote "I felt like it wasn’t, you know, acceptable to go back. It wasn’t a thing to go back, you know. It wasn’t something that was talked about. It didn’t feel like an option that they wanted to discuss or even mention" is also pretty damning.

Her Appendix 4 lists the reasons why many clinics refused to co-operate with her study (not really surprising), and indeed tried to actively thwart it ("disappointingly, as will become clear in this report, attempts to improve the evidence base have been thwarted by a lack of cooperation from the adult gender services.") It's pretty much self-interested activist groups doing what they want with very little in the way of medical/scientific evidence which you'd want to expect from such a serious matter. Cass says "children have been "let down" by a failure to base gender care on evidence-based research."

This is becoming a medical scandal to outstrip cervical cancer, thalidomide and others. It'll be interesting to see where it goes next - you wouldn't bet against class action law suits, and you'd hope some of the people involved serve jail time.

And in their own small way, I think those who put their pronouns on their emails or are otherwise "inclusive" of this sort of stuff will have some small amount of blood on their hands too.

JK Rowling is playing an absolute stormer on Twitter at the moment too - what an unlikely hero in all of this. And the abuse she's taken for it has been horrific.

Some home truths are coming out now.

Why were lunatics allowed to experiment on children ?

I don't know where a society that allows children to be experimented on is headed ? !

[sbgawa]

Couldnt agree with you more Stu on the HE/Him email bull****, i make a practise of avoiding doing business with anyone that carries on with that BS.
The problem with these zealots is they wont admit they are wrong despite the evidence, most of them are left wing versions of Donald Trump , evidence that doesnt agree with them is "Fake news"

[Real ale Madrid]

And in their own small way, I think those who put their pronouns on their emails or are otherwise "inclusive" of this sort of stuff will have some small amount of blood on their hands too.

JK Rowling is playing an absolute stormer on Twitter at the moment too - what an unlikely hero in all of this. And the abuse she's taken for it has been horrific.

Shocking to read this. Shocking.

[Real ale Madrid]

She more than once cites the toxicity of debate around the matter as unhelpful (we can see that with the way RAM tried to debate the matter earlier in thread actually, but more clearly on Twitter and even from organisations charged with trans care such as Stonewall) -

Calling me out on comments nearly 2 years ago and not tagging me and then saying I have "blood on my hands" all the while lamenting the toxicity of debate is a tad ironic no?

All on a thread called Roe v Wade - and yet I'm the toxic one.

This is unbelievably poor form.

[pineapple stu]

Really? That's what shocks you out of this? Really?

Not giving kids drugs linked to cancer and infertility? Not experimental surgery maiming them for life? Not pressure put on parents that their kids might commit suicide if they don't go for the surgery? Not the allegation WPATH is an ascientific body of activists which has abandoned the Hippocratic oath? Not the fact Hilary Cass has been advised not to take public transport because of hateful messages received? Not the fact that gender clinics actively worked against Cass during her report? Not the fact that no-one will talk to kids about detransitioning?

None of that shocks you?

There's a strong suggestion that many kids with autism or depression or even teenage angst look to this trans idea as a solution for all their problems - only to later find it's not a solution at all, and in the meantime some have done permanent harm to themselves.

Anything which blindly promotes inclusivity of this ideal can only be seen as problematic.

I will acknowledge the "blood on the hands" comment was maybe a bit excessive and borne out of anger and (a) this scandal and (b) the way the discussion is handled broadly. You can argue people didn't really know what was going on. Some may even have been advised by people they trust, such as doctors. But they know now.

[Real ale Madrid]

Really? That's what shocks you out of this? Really?

Not giving kids drugs linked to cancer and infertility? Not experimental surgery maiming them for life? Not pressure put on parents that their kids might commit suicide if they don't go for the surgery? Not the allegation WPATH is an ascientific body of activists which has abandoned the Hippocratic oath? Not the fact Hilary Cass has been advised not to take public transport because of hateful messages received? Not the fact that gender clinics actively worked against Cass during her report? Not the fact that no-one will talk to kids about detransitioning?

None of that shocks you?

There's a strong suggestion that many kids with autism or depression or even teenage angst look to this trans idea as a solution for all their problems - only to later find it's not a solution at all, and in the meantime some have done permanent harm to themselves.

Anything which blindly promotes inclusivity of this ideal can only be seen as problematic.

I will acknowledge the "blood on the hands" comment was maybe a bit excessive and borne out of anger and (a) this scandal and (b) the way the discussion is handled broadly. You can argue people didn't really know what was going on. But they know now.

I haven't had the chance to read any of the reports or digest it in full. I'm sure you are sincere in your anger and fair play to you for standing up for what you believe in but next time when dragging up posts from almost 2 years ago perhaps take a deep breath and leave off the personal attacks. Thanks.

[seanfhear]

Really? That's what shocks you out of this? Really?

Not giving kids drugs linked to cancer and infertility? Not experimental surgery maiming them for life? Not pressure put on parents that their kids might commit suicide if they don't go for the surgery? Not the allegation WPATH is an ascientific body of activists which has abandoned the Hippocratic oath? Not the fact Hilary Cass has been advised not to take public transport because of hateful messages received? Not the fact that gender clinics actively worked against Cass during her report? Not the fact that no-one will talk to kids about detransitioning?

None of that shocks you?

There's a strong suggestion that many kids with autism or depression or even teenage angst look to this trans idea as a solution for all their problems - only to later find it's not a solution at all, and in the meantime some have done permanent harm to themselves.

Anything which blindly promotes inclusivity of this ideal can only be seen as problematic.

I will acknowledge the "blood on the hands" comment was maybe a bit excessive and borne out of anger and (a) this scandal and (b) the way the discussion is handled broadly. You can argue people didn't really know what was going on. Some may even have been advised by people they trust, such as doctors. But they know now.

Excellently informed post = = The truth is out there.

[pineapple stu]

I haven't had the chance to read any of the reports or digest it in full. I'm sure you are sincere in your anger and fair play to you for standing up for what you believe in but next time when dragging up posts from almost 2 years ago perhaps take a deep breath and leave off the personal attacks. Thanks.

I don't see what the issue with the thread being old is. It's a slow-moving forum and this is a huge development in what was being discussed

Similarly your complaints about the thread title and not tagging you are bizarre (you can't tag people here, and the thread naturally evolved away from the what is it originally was about, as can happen)

It does feel a bit like you don't want to engage in the topic given your previous reluctance to, but let's wait until your reply I guess. There seems no excuse for getting taken in by this stuff now.

There's a well-supported campaign now to get a full British government investigation into this, including how it got its teeth into schools to the extent it did.

[Real ale Madrid]

I don't see what the issue with the thread being old is. It's a slow-moving forum and this is a huge development in what was being discussed

Similarly your complaints about the thread title and not tagging you are bizarre (you can't tag people here, and the thread naturally evolved away from the what is it originally was about, as can happen)

It does feel a bit like you don't want to engage in the topic given your previous reluctance to, but let's wait until your reply I guess. There seems no excuse for getting taken in by this stuff now.

There's a well-supported campaign now to get a full British government investigation into this, including how it got its teeth into schools to the extent it did.

You've already attacked me by calling my posts toxic and saying I've blood on my hands. Now you are making me out to be some sort of lunatic. I won't be replying to any of your specific posts so no need to wait. The thread may be slow moving but the topic isn't - I've had some revisions to my opinions in the meantime. And some stuff I'd still standby but won't be discussing it here at length. There are many many well supported campaigns to get the British government to investigate into a lot of things. Lets hope their investigation into this particular issue happens if there is wrongdoing - and it is through and comprehensive when found.

[passinginterest]

The Journal has some good articles on this. There's articles from both sides of the argument and a podcast (haven't listened yet).
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/tav...56143-Apr2024/
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/tav...56357-Apr2024/
https://www.thejournal.ie/cass-repor...59360-Apr2024/

I think what's clear is that there was a lot of rapid developments in trans care and activism and that the science has lagged behind in terms of some of the approaches that have become popular with many activists. I'd by hypocritical if I didn't think a science based approach is best, but that does have to be caveated with potential bias, that could be inherent based on where funding has come from, what sources have been used/excluded from the study etc.

What's certainly clear is that there's a need for wrap around supports, medical, psychological etc. There needs to be better collection of data and monitoring of results from different approaches. Work needs to be done to encourage broader participation in the studies, as it's evident that some chose not to participate in the Cass report that could have provided more insights. There's a good point made in the "against" article on the Journal about anti-trans weaponisation of the report, and potential backlash.

[pineapple stu]

You've already attacked me by calling my posts toxic and saying I've blood on my hands. Now you are making me out to be some sort of lunatic. I won't be replying to any of your specific posts so no need to wait. The thread may be slow moving but the topic isn't - I've had some revisions to my opinions in the meantime. And some stuff I'd still standby but won't be discussing it here at length.

Unfortunately this sort of stance is all-too-typical

I did call your posts toxic - you were warned in thread for example. You suggested my concerns as those of a "snowflake" in your opening post on the thread - I wonder will you now concede they're very valid indeed? My post 61 looks fairly prescient for example. This stuff hasn't just come to light now, despite your numerous protestations in the thread which haven't stood the test of time - saying there's zero hard evidence linking autism and gender dysphoria for example. You "could be convinced" that organisations should be allowed force people as their pronouns to their emails, but now there's growing evidence that people with autism, depression, or other unfortunate mental issues latch on to this as something great; the solution to all their worries. But it's not. It's making things worse for them by papering over real issues. And even pushing them towards the hands of loonie activists. (You mentioned D&I - another group that needs to take a long hard look at itself. Ironically I'm telling us all what to think, they've removed the possibility of other opinions - of diversity, as it were)

I've not called you some sort of lunatic - that's an absurd leap. Typical of the way this is discussed too often - throw some mud, run away, hope it sticks

Meanwhile, 16 senior psychologists - some of whom worked at GIDS - are the latest to add their voices to the call for an investigation into "the scandal unfolding at Gender Identity Development Service clinics"
(https://www.theguardian.com/theobser...server-letters)

[Real ale Madrid]

Unfortunately this sort of stance is all-too-typical

I did call your posts toxic - you were warned in thread for example. You suggested my concerns as those of a "snowflake" in your opening post on the thread - I wonder will you now concede they're very valid indeed? My post 61 looks fairly prescient for example. This stuff hasn't just come to light now, despite your numerous protestations in the thread which haven't stood the test of time - saying there's zero hard evidence linking autism and gender dysphoria for example. You "could be convinced" that organisations should be allowed force people as their pronouns to their emails, but now there's growing evidence that people with autism, depression, or other unfortunate mental issues latch on to this as something great; the solution to all their worries. But it's not. It's making things worse for them by papering over real issues. And even pushing them towards the hands of loonie activists. (You mentioned D&I - another group that needs to take a long hard look at itself. Ironically I'm telling us all what to think, they've removed the possibility of other opinions - of diversity, as it were)

I've not called you some sort of lunatic - that's an absurd leap. Typical of the way this is discussed too often - throw some mud, run away, hope it sticks

Meanwhile, 16 senior psychologists - some of whom worked at GIDS - are the latest to add their voices to the call for an investigation into "the scandal unfolding at Gender Identity Development Service clinics"
(https://www.theguardian.com/theobser...server-letters)

Listen - there's a lot in that - and I will rebutt some of the items you've brought up in good time, maybe, if I ever get the chance to be as informed as I can. I haven't read the report or anything like in the level of detail you have. I don't like wading in on topics I'm not up to speed on - during Covid I got involved in some D&I initiatives in work and felt a little bit more informed at the time and I felt the initial criticism leveled at the pronouns discussion was unfair.

Few things -

Please do not drag me by my username into a long dormant thread to score some sort of point. If you want to mention general discourse then do it - there are plenty reference points online for you to link. Leave me out of it - or at least if you do, QUOTE ME - and quit it with the - "wasn't RAM awful that time when we discussed this in 2022 - isn't it typical".

Please do not call my posts toxic. I was not warned about my posts being toxic at the time - that is a lie. I regrettably used the word snowflake a few times and I apologized for that repeatedly. It was actually in reference to something Dahamsta said not you. That type of introspection is the opposite of toxic. You are ignoring this of course this to suit your narrative.

Saying people are "taken in" by "this stuff" - makes them out to be not of sound mind - as if they are incapable of making up their own minds. Please do not do that either. Its not a leap and its not throwing s1ht as you call it.

And lastly - in all my time posting on internet fora for the last 25 odd years I've never had to wake up and read anything like I did this morning when I logged on with a cuppa. You might want to tone things down a bit - not everyone is as vexed on such matters as you are. I'm really not sure why you are so belligerent on a football forum on Gender issues arising out of potential malpractice in the UK. Are there not loads of other places you could be discussing stuff like that, or are just trying to make a show of me? Like I said I've been posting on places like this for years - and guess what - I've been proved wrong more than I've been proved right. If I read up and discover you were spot on about everything I'll be sure and let you know. For now I'm off to wash the blood off my hands.