FAI or IFA - who's worse?

[bigmac]

This article in the Irish Times this morning - good to see a journalist making positive comments about the lack of trouble at North South games. Didn't know about the Sunday ban in the North - surprised it's lasted this long. How does soccer survive on this Island with two incompetent organisations controlling it?



On Soccer: If the behaviour of Glentoran fans in the wake of Wednesday's hefty defeat at Tolka Park cemented impressions provided by the successful first running of the Setanta Cup that an All-Ireland league could finally be a reality, it also suggested that while supporters in the North have moved admirably on, some administrators there remain committed to life in the dark ages.

The IFA's problems are manifold but they centre on the traditional chestnuts of cash and Catholics.

The monetary difficulties came to light after an audit conducted at the behest of new chief executive Howard Wells uncovered chronic failures in the organisation's rather shambolic financial structures which left the association open to fraud and misappropriation.

Neither has actually been found so far although the British Sports Council have sent independent auditors for a follow-up investigation which is expected to provide a fuller picture of how things have been done on Windsor Avenue in recent years.

In the meantime, long-time general secretary David Bowen has been forced out although only after a pay-off of £534,050 (remarkably close to the €800,000 paid to Fran Rooney by the FAI) was agreed. Bowen, of course, did not earn nearly as much as Rooney but, after 21 years in the job, what he did have going for him was a staggering 11 years left on his recently-signed contract of employment.

Bowen's departure is widely seen as a step forward but it has also prompted a feud between his supporters and those of IFA president Jim Boyce, a popular figure at Uefa level where, his critics say, his priorities lie.

The Sunday football row is perhaps more embarrassing still, for many neutral observers expected the ban to be dropped in June at the IFA's agm. Instead, a motion proposing its abolition almost didn't get a seconder and, after it did, it was defeated by 54 votes to 28.

Under the proposal nobody would have been forced to participate in Sunday games and so players would have had an effective veto over whether matches went ahead. Linfield manager David Jeffrey said he would have nothing to do with games played on Sunday although his club, unlike the predominantly Catholic-supported Cliftonville which abstained, voted in favour of the proposal.

Glentoran striker Michael Halliday, like Jeffrey a born-again Christian, was one of a number of prominent players to oppose the idea but others have been fiercely supportive and when the Belfast Telegraph, which ran a strongly worded editorial in favour of change, carried an article on the views of supporters the author could not find one in favour of retaining the ban.

The prohibition, the only one of its kind in Europe, is against Fifa regulations and is opposed by the IFA's own community relations officer, Michael Boyd, who recently described Sunday football as "a logical extension of our football for all policy".

Boyd, in fact, runs a league for members of the North's various minority communities that is played on Sunday but a Catholic team who play a game at any level on the same day are liable to suspension while the rules are so bizarrely archaic that even senior professionals who play in England or Scotland on the Sabbath are technically excluding themselves from the international set-up. Much of this has been conveniently brushed under the carpet.

Not, however, for much longer it seems because the government's patience appears to have run out and much needed funding is now being withheld pending measures to address the IFA's governance issues and what amounts to lingering sectarianism.

Councils across the North have already had to change their policy in relation to parks and leisure facilities and sports such as rugby and horse racing, have moved with the times. The government is now determined that football does the same.

So, too, is a significant minority of people within the game with Robert Fenton of the Ballymena Provincial League, which seconded the motion at June's agm, confirming yesterday the intermediate league is set to launch a legal challenge to both this rule and the wider constitution of the organisation.

"We're confident we'll succeed in having them both thrown out in the courts," he says.

If Fenton and his colleagues do prevail it will be another important step forward.

[thejollyrodger]

i seen the article and when I saw the thread I was going to post it. I know the FAI are a bunch of muppets but in fairness things have defintely improved a lot since Saipan. There is progress on a whole range of areas like

refereeing
clubs in Europe
licencing
facilities for the national team
more efficent FAI
etc

The IFA looks like it hasnt moved on since the 70's. The fact that you cant play football in the north on a sunday is a joke. Talk about being backward. Soccer was kept going in the north because of the religious hatred IMO. Very few clubs seemed to be particluarly intrested in making progress in Europe or developing their grounds and clubs.

[garykelly]

There is progress on a whole range of areas like

refereeing
clubs in Europe
licencing
facilities for the national team
more efficent FAI
etc

from that list I can only agree with two items; clubs in europe and facilities for the national team.

Refereeing (I refer to first division experiences) is still not what it should be with the referees being more robotic than human. Football as a product is this country will never improve with referees adamant on taking centre stage. How can you tell someone to go watch the Eircom league when all they'll see is someone ruining the game for both side.

Licencing - while some clubs are going about getting things right and their house in order, some clubs are still some way off being licenced fully. The rules of licencing are only as strict as the level of governance from the FAI. Some clubs have no ground yet can still get a licence, while other grounds are in shambles yet they play too. I think whether or not licencing can be seen as successful can be judged in 2-3 years time. I still think at that point some clubs still wont be in order.

More efficient FAI - what's the measure of this ? I dont know. We'll have to wait before we can judge this one, but if the imagination of the FAI only strectches to copying the greyhound board then I'm not too hopeful. We will have to wait and see.

[steveyg2004]

i seen the article and when I saw the thread I was going to post it. I know the FAI are a bunch of muppets but in fairness things have defintely improved a lot since Saipan. There is progress on a whole range of areas like

refereeing
clubs in Europe
licencing
facilities for the national team
more efficent FAI
etc

The IFA looks like it hasnt moved on since the 70's. The fact that you cant play football in the north on a sunday is a joke. Talk about being backward. Soccer was kept going in the north because of the religious hatred IMO. Very few clubs seemed to be particluarly intrested in making progress in Europe or developing their grounds and clubs.

I'm sorry but your opinion is simply wrong - The period when attendences in Irish League football reduced most dramatically was following the onset of 'the troubles'. Ireland is a country defined by the religious divide, but while football was not trouble free prior to the 70s, even in the 60s and early 70s Irish League clubs were in ridiculously good health. To suggest that our league has been 'kept going' because of religious hatred rather than been put on the brink of extinction by it is wrong. Don't suppose you have ever read Michael Walker in the Guardian Jolly Rodger, I would be interested to hear your view on his pieces on football in Ireland. (North/South)

[bigmac]

refereeing
clubs in Europe
licencing
facilities for the national team
more efficent FAI
etc

Have to agree with garykelly on this one, the licensing is a joke to be fair. If they had come down hard on people the first time and made an example of a club (any club) it might have prompted the rest of the clubs to pull up their socks. as it is, the FAI stood by and watched clubs being run into the ground.

Refereeing is a sticky one to deal with. I'm always reluctant to go on about referees as it's a no win situation but I think that this is one area the FAI should invest a good amount of money and properly train the refs.

the clubs in Europe point is a fair one, for which I think summer soccer is at least partially responsible, but in general, the association doesn't get any credit in my book for increasingly professional attitudes amongst the top clubs. I'd even go as far as to say that results in Europe have improved despite the FAI/EL

National team facilities were only improved after the most divisive issue since the civil war when that great patriot/traitorous scum (delete as appropriate) Roy Keane raised the issue during Saipangate. The advent of Brian Kerr's underage players to the senior ranks here has a big factor to play as we now have players in the squad who are used to winning competitions, and are not there for the craic.

more efficient FAI? not sure about that one, how long did they take over the last appointment because they refused to advertise the position? thankfully something could be done about it and money was withheld until they complied. They might be more efficient than a few years ago, but that's not saying much is it?


steveyg, I'd be interested to hear what you think of the state of the IFA at the moment and what you think needs to be done. Could an expanded Setanta Cup begin to overshadow the league in a way similar to how the Champions League is beginning to be the number one priority for big continental clubs now?

[steveyg2004]

steveyg, I'd be interested to hear what you think of the state of the IFA at the moment and what you think needs to be done. Could an expanded Setanta Cup begin to overshadow the league in a way similar to how the Champions League is beginning to be the number one priority for big continental clubs now?

Only the other day I thought about posting a thread on Foot.ie asking Eircom League fans what they though to their national football association. To be quite honest, you would be hard pushed to find even 1 Irish League fan who does not think the IFA is an incompetent, neglegent, stubborn organisation made up of little men concerned with their little positions. The IFA are a laughing stock in our country and they have been so for years. In contrast, the perception in Northern Ireland is that the FAI is better run, more helpful to clubs with financial assistance etc. The FAI is seen as the chalk to the IFA's cheese. I guess things are never as clear cut as that.

Regarding the Setanta Cup, I can never see the competition in its current format overshadowing or taking priority over the two respective national leagues. The glory is, has been, and will continue to be with winning the league title and being crowned the best team in the country. The Setanta Cup could easily be gone in a few years like its predecessors, but I would hope it could be a precurser to an all Ireland League - specifically 2 divisions of 16 teams; both leagues start with 8 from the North and 8 from the South. There would be open promotion and relegation between the 2 leagues, leading to the likely situation whereby the top division is made up of more Eircom League teams, simply due to Demographics.

[BohDiddley]

The Setanta Cup could easily be gone in a few years like its predecessors, but I would hope it could be a precurser to an all Ireland League - specifically 2 divisions of 16 teams; both leagues start with 8 from the North and 8 from the South. There would be open promotion and relegation between the 2 leagues, leading to the likely situation whereby the top division is made up of more Eircom League teams, simply due to Demographics.

All for an all-Ireland setup, SteveyG, but why should there there be an even split of clubs, given the far from even split in population?

[student]

Do you know who wrote the article? an interesting piece!

[EnDai]

I think initially it would be for a fairness point of view, and it would even out over a few years then. Of course by then it would just be a case of who the teams are, not their loaction, as it would be a true league of Ireland. With 2 leagues of 16 teams we'd want 3 down and 3 up. 2 automatic promotions, and 4 teams in playoffs for the final spot, like the UK.

[LFC in Exile]

Do you know who wrote the article? an interesting piece!

Emmet Malone.

I think there is a case of "far away hills" here. IL fans think the IFA are muppets and FAI well run. We think FAI are muppets and other organsiations better run. The GAA fans probably think the GAA alickadoos are muppets and on and on and on.

But that doesn't change the fact that the FAI are muppets.

[student]

Emmet Malone.
:

Thanks

[steveyg2004]

All for an all-Ireland setup, SteveyG, but why should there there be an even split of clubs, given the far from even split in population?

That's why there should be 2 divisions of 16. Derry City would be one of the Irish League teams - and as I said in my previous post it is likely (given population) that the Premier Division would have more Eircom League sides after a few years and therefore more of the Irish League sides would be competing in the 1st Division.

Something which would be personally important to me if an All Ireland League set-up was implemented, is that the Irish Cup is retained and becomes the premier cup competition - No disrespect to the FAI Cup, but it would really be something to see the likes of Shelbourne (3 times winners) and Bohemians (1 time winner) compete in the Irish Cup once again - The name of it sounds right too, don't you think!

[Slash/ED]

Two 16 team leagues cutting off the rest isn't a good idea imo. I'd favour one league of 16 with regional first divisions, cuts down on the expence argument against the AIL too.

[holidaysong]

Two 16 team leagues cutting off the rest isn't a good idea imo. I'd favour one league of 16 with regional first divisions, cuts down on the expence argument against the AIL too.

Yeah I wouldn't fancy being someone like Cobh Ramblers in a First Division having to travel away to 8 teams in the North and maybe others like Finn Harps, Monaghan, Sligo...

[crc]

...the Irish Cup is retained and becomes the premier cup competition - No disrespect to the FAI Cup, but it would really be something to see the likes of Shelbourne (3 times winners) and Bohemians (1 time winner) compete in the Irish Cup once again

Not to mention Derry City (2 time winner)!!

I'd be in favour of retaining the 'Irish Cup' name in a unified structure. Its the third oldest competition in the world (apparently).

I would go for a 16 team top division (with a cool new brand name, like "Professional Irish Soccer Series" - oh, hang on, maybe not [P1SS] )
You could have the top 6 from the IL and eL, and let the next four teams from each enter a playoff for the remaining four initial places - that way you wouldn't have any dead wood in the inaugural season!

I'd prefer a national second tier, but if the lower divisions were regionalised, you could have three teams automatically down from the top division, to be replaced by one champion from each of the lower leagues (presumably north and south) plus a play-off between the second place teams for the third spot.

EDIT: wouldn't accept P1SS

[dcfcsteve]

Derry City would be one of the Irish League teams

Oooohhh - walking on glass there Stevey - even if it was only us 'notionally' being back in the IL.....

[thejollyrodger]

i said progress

and its the best of a bad bunch. The IFA is pathetic

[Gerrit]

You can't neglect Southern teams do better in Europe and their national team does way better at this moment, but accomodation ?? You must be joking, TJR.

Stadiums up north are way better than in the Republic. IMO only four clubs in the South have a stadium worth Premiership football: Shelbourne, Cork City, Longford, and Bohemians. Maybe, just maybe, you can add St Pats.

In the North, Linfield and Glens have very decent grounds, but that's far from all. Portadown, Glenavon, Derry, ... all have grounds that, apart from those 4 teams mentionned, overclass the stadiums in the LOI.

And that's just being objective. I now live in Northern Ireland and have lived in "Southern Ireland" for 11 months ; call me neutral The football south of the border is in better health than in the North in general (see the results of clubs and national side in Europe), but if there's one thing better in the North, it's the grounds.

[Stevo Da Gull]

the Irish Cup is retained and becomes the premier cup competition - No disrespect to the FAI Cup, but it would really be something to see the likes of Shelbourne (3 times winners) and Bohemians (1 time winner) compete in the Irish Cup once again - The name of it sounds right too, don't you think!

I agree, you just gotsta have the Irish Cup,it's the original . On top of that it would be a statement and a symbol of the victory of football over all the other carp thats obstructed the 2 league's over the years

[Vitruvian Man]

When setting up an all Ireland league we could have a transition year where all 32 teams are randomly drawn into two pools of 16. They play each other twice and the top eight in each league go on to form the new first division. The bottom eight from both form the new second division.

The winners of the two leagues can play off to see who are the champions.

That way, when the new league is formed is based on merit rather than geography.