Saipan - 20 Years On

[EalingGreen]

Clinton Morrison said he made the 'English cnut' remark, Quinn said he never said it.

I know which of the two I'd believe - and it's not Quinn, who for all the "hale fellow, well met" appearance, always came across to me as a bit sneaky.

Then again, I may be being influenced by the fact that I like Morrison, clearly a decent sort.

[Jolly Red Giant]

The annoying thing with all of this is that Ireland had an excellent chance to progress in that tournament - going out on penalties to a Spanish team that only had ten men on the pitch and another who couldn't run - with Keane on the pitch in that game he would have driven the Irish players forward in search of a winning goal. Beat Spain and your up against a S. Korean team that was beatable and then Germany who Ireland had already drawn with in the group stage and were also beatable.

I think that what frustrated Keane more than the problems with the training facilities etc, was the attitude of some of the players who felt they had made the finals, were happy to be there and were relaxed about what was going on around them and McCarthy was happy to go along with it - where as Keane wanted a discipline and a plan to maximise the potential of the team. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if McCarthy got Keane onside by imposing the discipline that Keane thought was necessary, rather than imposing discipline on Keane for acting out.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I know which of the two I'd believe - and it's not Quinn, who for all the "hale fellow, well met" appearance, always came across to me as a bit sneaky.

Then again, I may be being influenced by the fact that I like Morrison, clearly a decent sort.

Morrison is dead sound - a working class kid from a deprived background who had to scrap for everything and never lost the run of himself - and always helped people when he could.

[SkStu]

The annoying thing with all of this is that Ireland had an excellent chance to progress in that tournament - going out on penalties to a Spanish team that only had ten men on the pitch and another who couldn't run - with Keane on the pitch in that game he would have driven the Irish players forward in search of a winning goal. Beat Spain and your up against a S. Korean team that was beatable and then Germany who Ireland had already drawn with in the group stage and were also beatable.

I think that what frustrated Keane more than the problems with the training facilities etc, was the attitude of some of the players who felt they had made the finals, were happy to be there and were relaxed about what was going on around them and McCarthy was happy to go along with it - where as Keane wanted a discipline and a plan to maximise the potential of the team. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if McCarthy got Keane onside by imposing the discipline that Keane thought was necessary, rather than imposing discipline on Keane for acting out.

I'll always agree with Mick's insistence that Saipan was meant to be relaxed for the squad at the end of a long season, unwind, build some morale - instead of the intense camp that Keane had wanted it to be. Now, there is a lot i'll agree with Keane on in terms of how the logistics were handled and generally wanting to see a winning mentality but that needs to be balanced. I think he misread the room massively and, likely, just didnt really want to be there and be away from his family and home comforts for such a long time.

Theres no doubt in my mind that if we had a more content Keano there, we'd have gone further. In retrospect, it seems like getting Keano in that headspace at that stage of his career would have been a herculean task for any manager.

[seanfhear]

Alex Ferguson wasn't long showing Roy Keane the door when push came to shove !

[CraftyToePoke]

It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if McCarthy got Keane onside by imposing the discipline that Keane thought was necessary, rather than imposing discipline on Keane for acting out.

I think the intervening years have shown getting & keeping RMK onside is thankless and pointless spend of time. Doubtlessly things in Saipan weren't to his liking but was his handling of it proportional ? No. With everything that's been said of this, the one truth of it is the one thing that hasn't been said enough, the defining narrative, the pressure cooked him & he blew.

We could have had a tilt at a WC final with him, yes. We'd almost certainly have done better. But bottom line he went home & stayed there. Mick not blameless either in the fallout.

Oh, & the last movie I want to watch is one about that few weeks. It was pretty much downhill from there with the odd blip rally to where we find Irish football today & it could still get worse.

[Razors left peg]

Whatever about who is right or wrong between Roy and Mick, the choice of Saipan for their "rest and relaxation" before the world cup is still weird and disgraceful. Im not sure people still even realize how far away Saipan is from Japan. It made no sense to go there, and even less given the lack of facilities there for a football team. It was another case of peoples pockets being lined.

This movie will be more depressing than Angelas Ashes

[CraftyToePoke]

This movie will be more depressing than Angelas Ashes

Which was actually mostly filmed in Cork because Limerick wasn't derelict enough but Cork had ample choices, location wise. Fun fact there unless someone from Limerick is pointing it out to someone from Cork, which I often have.

[seanfhear]

Who gets to play Roy Keane's dog = = The best part in the whole episode.

[pineapple stu]

Whatever about who is right or wrong between Roy and Mick, the choice of Saipan for their "rest and relaxation" before the world cup is still weird and disgraceful. Im not sure people still even realize how far away Saipan is from Japan.

I would have thought the distance from all the hype would have been part of the point of going to Saipan tbh

[Razors left peg]

I would have thought the distance from all the hype would have been part of the point of going to Saipan tbh

They could have stopped anywhere along the way to Japan, Saipan is so far out of the way it was ridiculous

[Fixer82]

I know which of the two I'd believe - and it's not Quinn, who for all the "hale fellow, well met" appearance, always came across to me as a bit sneaky.

Then again, I may be being influenced by the fact that I like Morrison, clearly a decent sort.

It was actually Tom Humphries’ book ‘lap top dancing and nanny goats…’ something or other.

He said when writing Quinn’s book he mentioned it and Quinn said ‘yeah Roy never said that’.
Humphries published it on hearsay as time wasn’t on his side to go to print and get the story out.

Keane also says he asked Humphries to leave out the bit of him not respecting McCarthy and not to tell anyone after he said it, but he didn’t.

Great writer but questionable morals it must be said

[Fixer82]

The real movie I want to see is David Connolly’s handheld videocam footage on the island.

[pineapple stu]

They could have stopped anywhere along the way to Japan, Saipan is so far out of the way it was ridiculous

But it was intended so be well out of the way. And if was only a couple of hours' flight to Japan then.

I'm not seeing the big issue tbh?

[Razors left peg]

But it was intended so be well out of the way. And if was only a couple of hours' flight to Japan then.

I'm not seeing the big issue tbh?

The flight to Japan is long enough, why would you add another 4 or 5 hours to it? Saipan is in the middle of the Pacific, nowhere close to Japan, and had no facilities to accommodate a professional football team. I just got off an 11 hour flight on Monday, I wouldnt have appreciated another 1 hour let alone going off where they did.

[The Fly]

It was actually Tom Humphries’ book ‘lap top dancing and nanny goats…’ something or other.

He said when writing Quinn’s book he mentioned it and Quinn said ‘yeah Roy never said that’.
Humphries published it on hearsay as time wasn’t on his side to go to print and get the story out.

Keane also says he asked Humphries to leave out the bit of him not respecting McCarthy and not to tell anyone after he said it, but he didn’t.

Great writer but questionable morals it must be said

Now there's an understatement.

[SkStu]

The flight to Japan is long enough, why would you add another 4 or 5 hours to it? Saipan is in the middle of the Pacific, nowhere close to Japan, and had no facilities to accommodate a professional football team. I just got off an 11 hour flight on Monday, I wouldnt have appreciated another 1 hour let alone going off where they did.

It wasn’t a layover though so I’m not sure what the problem is in terms of flight length… they were there for about 10 days if I recall correctly to acclimatize prior to gearing up properly when they reached their main base in Japan. And looking at the location on a map, there’s no where that is practical as a pre-camp base in the vicinity - if you exclude SK and Japan themselves. In other words, if not Saipan then where is the obviously better choice? It just leaves the facilities there which, and I believe him on this, McCartthy said were of secondary importance and not the intent of the trip.

[Razors left peg]

It wasn’t a layover though so I’m not sure what the problem is in terms of flight length… they were there for about 10 days if I recall correctly to acclimatize prior to gearing up properly when they reached their main base in Japan. And looking at the location on a map, there’s no where that is practical as a pre-camp base in the vicinity - if you exclude SK and Japan themselves. In other words, if not Saipan then where is the obviously better choice? It just leaves the facilities there which, and I believe him on this, McCartthy said were of secondary importance and not the intent of the trip.

They could have gone anywhere in Asia if they wanted to acclimatize, going off into the middle of the Pacific made no sense

[sbgawa]

I've never understood how a supposed professional team.pre world cup could spend 10 days somewhere where supposedly professional level facilities were not important. It's just nonsense , it wouldn't be tolerated now and was daft then.

[pineapple stu]

They could have gone anywhere in Asia if they wanted to acclimatize, going off into the middle of the Pacific made no sense

They couldn't though. They couldn't have gone to a large city or somewhere at serious altitude or one of the more repressive regimes or somewhere significantly west of Japan (because of the risk of jetlag flying on)

As Stu says, it wasn't a layover; it was somewhere to get away from the media of the Premier League and the World Cup, to bind as a group before heading on to their base in Japan, which was excellent.

It's a weird choice for sure. But I'm not seeing what the issue is