Saipan - 20 Years On

[Diggs246]

He is Ireland greatest player just not a very nice person

[third policeman]

He is Ireland greatest player just not a very nice person

That’s quite a claim. Personally I’d rate Giles and Brady ahead of him in terms of players that I have seen in my time as an Ireland supporter. McGrath would also have a legitimate claim to that title. Keane’s personality and leadership ability stand out. but as a footballer on a purely technical level I’m not convinced he’s our greatest ever player. Back in the day Bryan Robson was raved about as a player and was in many ways similar to Keane, but I’d have always rated Hoddle ahead of him although Robson got more England caps when they were competing for selection. Did Keane ever take your breath away with a piece of sublime skill? He was the supreme artisan, but never an artist.

[SkStu]

Agree, 3rd P. From my observations, the conversation has to include McGrath and Brady and, for me, Robbie Keane is a shoe-in for consideration too and, objectively, probably has the best claim for the title. I never got to see Giles in action so i cant really evaluate him... If i was forced to rank...

1. Robbie
2. McGrath (my personal favourite)
3. Roy
4. Brady

[ontheotherhand]

Agree, 3rd P. From my observations, the conversation has to include McGrath and Brady and, for me, Robbie Keane is a shoe-in for consideration too and, objectively, probably has the best claim for the title. I never got to see Giles in action so i cant really evaluate him... If i was forced to rank...

1. Robbie
2. McGrath (my personal favourite)
3. Roy
4. Brady

Wow....I wouldn't have Robbie anywhere near the top myself. I'm the same in that I missed Giles but also Brady.

It'd be:

1. Roy
2. McGrath
3. Keane
4. Duff

Don't get me wrong, Robbie was gifted but he wasn't close to Roy's level at any stage in his career. I'd have Duff very close to Robbie and a big gap between Robbie and McGrath. I'd argue that Duff even did his stuff at a higher level than Robbie but when their careers and relative impact for Ireland are taken into account Robbie edges it.

On Roy's technical chops, you don't become a central midfielder for the best team of your time without technical ability. Discounting that because he didn't throw in a rabona or two seems a bit silly to me. His first touch was fantastic. He took the ball in whatever space he had and rarely lost it. His passing was very underrated. Again he rarely lost it but he also made brave passes forward to break lines. It's easy to take no risks and keep the ball but Keane made sure his passing moved the team into more dangerous positions. He was a good finisher as well. 51 odd goals in 471 games for Man U. Obviously his reading of the game was second to none. He covered every blade of grass without ever seeming to hurt his team's shape or be out of position. You could even look at his transition through different playing positions through his career as evidence he was a very technically astute footballer. The medal count doesn't lie.

[SkStu]

I know that Robbie Keane is a sometimes controversial pick around here (and definitely doesnt get the love he deserves) but you have to look at the statistics when breaking this down...
- underage tournament wins
- record caps holder for us, 68 goals - pretty much a goal every other game
- top irish goal scorer in the WC02, top Irish WC goal scorer all time
- top 5 european international goal scorer of all time
- top 15 premier league goal scorer of all time
- a whole bunch of individual awards and team trophies/honours

In short, he brought a lot of joy to us as fans. Some of our best moments involved him hitting the net. Someone who we could be really proud of too as a person and pro. I get that he is not everyone's choice (though i never really understood why) but he really does have a strong case just on the numbers alone.

If i was being strict to my own critieria around statistics, you'd have to take Roys honours list at the club level into account and that would likely place him higher than McGrath when you take all the data points into account. But i just love McGrath, I was in awe of him.

edit: in reading your post again, i suppose a big part of the evaluation is how much weight you place on the players role, stats and performances with Ireland vs. how much you take club role, stats and performances into it.

[Razors left peg]

Robbie Keane is the most under appreciated sports star we've ever had!

[ontheotherhand]

- underage tournament wins
> hmmm......not sure I'd count this. Lot's of players do well underage.

- record caps holder for us, 68 goals - pretty much a goal every other game
- top irish goal scorer in the WC02, top Irish WC goal scorer all time
- top 5 european international goal scorer of all time
- top 15 premier league goal scorer of all time

>scoring goals was his job though. I'm not saying he wasn't the best we've ever had at his job, but was he better at his job than Keane or McGrath were at theirs? I don't think so but I can see why you'd say he was. He was superb with Berbatov for a few years but outside of that did he ever really get close to world class levels?

- a whole bunch of individual awards and team trophies/honours
> League Cup?

I think he gets a bit of a bad rep as well to be fair. He was brilliant for us. The contractual stuff now is unfortunate but even when he was playing people were often on his back. Never understood it myself. He was by far and away the best striker I've seen for Ireland. But Roy was on a different level altogether for me.

[SkStu]

At the end of the day, these lists are always (and rightfully) filtered with a healthy dose of subjectivity so my comments aren't designed to try and convince you (or anyone) to change minds. And I am not here to build a case for Robbie above all else but... I think you are being unfair to dismiss his underage honours with us - and the Celtic Nations cup win too - especially in an international context. As well as dismissing his individual honours which are noteworthy and his trophies/medals when you look at his time with LA Galaxy where he is a bona-fide legend among the fans there.

The world class comment requires some level of definition... I think 148 caps, 68 goals and joint 6th UEFA goal scorer of all time (in addition to everything else) surely puts that to bed?

Razors post says all that needs to be said.

[SkStu]

Let me add a little more fuel to the fire... if Roy had shown up in 2002, there's more than a fair chance he would be #1 or #2 in my list.

[ontheotherhand]

Let me add a little more fuel to the fire... if Roy had shown up in 2002, there's more than a fair chance he would be #1 or #2 in my list.

Not touching that.

[ontheotherhand]

At the end of the day, these lists are always (and rightfully) filtered with a healthy dose of subjectivity so my comments aren't designed to try and convince you (or anyone) to change minds. And I am not here to build a case for Robbie above all else but... I think you are being unfair to dismiss his underage honours with us - and the Celtic Nations cup win too - especially in an international context. As well as dismissing his individual honours which are noteworthy and his trophies/medals when you look at his time with LA Galaxy where he is a bona-fide legend among the fans there.

The world class comment requires some level of definition... I think 148 caps, 68 goals and joint 6th UEFA goal scorer of all time (in addition to everything else) surely puts that to bed?

Razors post says all that needs to be said.

I'm really pedantic when it comes to calling players world class but him being the joint 6th UEFA scorer of all time is pretty compelling to be fair. I think you have to take into account the opposition when looking at international records but to be joint 6th is phenomenal regardless. Thanks for sharing that. I wasn't aware.

Either way, Robbie's great and I'd agree he is underrated by a large chunk of Irish football supporters.

[elatedscum]

He was higher when he retired as well, I guess joint 4th with Gerd Muller. And was then overtaken by Ronaldo and Lewandowski

[elatedscum]

As for greatest irish player:

1. Giles
2. Brady
3. Roy
4. McGrath
5. Robbie

I think I’ve seen enough video of Giles and Brady to make that call

[ontheotherhand]

Why stop at the top 5!

..................Given
Finnan, McGrath, Dunne, Irwin
................Roy
............Brady Giles
..Hoolahan..............Duff
...............Robbie

[third policeman]

Why stop at the top 5!

..................Given
Finnan, McGrath, Dunne, Irwin
................Roy
............Brady Giles
..Hoolahan..............Duff
...............Robbie

...........Given..........
Coleman McGrath Lawrenson Irwin
.....Whelan Giles Brady
Robbie Stapleton Heighway

[ontheotherhand]

...........Given..........
Coleman McGrath Lawrenson Irwin
.....Whelan Giles Brady
Robbie Stapleton Heighway

You including Whelan over Keane might be even odder than me including Hoolahan!

[elatedscum]

Why stop at the top 5!

..................Given
Finnan, McGrath, Dunne, Irwin
................Roy
............Brady Giles
..Hoolahan..............Duff
...............Robbie

That’d be pretty much my team except Dave O’Leary instead of Dunne, as much as I love Richie. I’ve watched full games on video with a young O’Leary and it’s genuinely the closest thing I’ve ever seen to Virgil Van Dijk. His speed, his strength, his composure and his passing, just phenomenal - genuinely world class.

I suspect people a decade or two older than me might have Ray Houghton or Ronnie Whelan ahead of Duff or Wes, but for me, Wes is the best pure footballer I’ve seen live playing for ireland. He was the best player we had in euro 2016 and he was 34. Trap ignoring him was insane. He was Norwich best player, playing 37 games during 2011-12 (33 in the premier league) and he didn’t make the ireland squad for euro 2012, in fact he had never been called up by Trap at that stage, despite his outstanding performances in the championship and the premier league. The fact he was 30 when trap finally gave him a game and he received his second cap, just insane (he got a single cap off the bench just after trap arrived). He really should have been a guy who got 100 caps - he got 42 caps in his 30s. Trap basically didn’t want footballers and retrospectively it was very much to our detriment

[Razors left peg]

...........Given..........
Coleman McGrath Lawrenson Irwin
.....Whelan Giles Brady
Robbie Stapleton Heighway

Any best ever Ireland team that doesn't include Roy Keane is simply nonsense. Whatever your feelings about him personally it's completely indisputable that he's one of greatest ever

[Snapshot]

As for greatest irish player:

1. Giles
2. Brady
3. Roy
4. McGrath
5. Robbie

I think I’ve seen enough video of Giles and Brady to make that call

I like your selection. Giles and Brady were undoubtedly world class. Roy just about, when the planets aligned. McGrath very close. But I'm disappointed with some posts about Robbie. A few fans' memories seem compromised by more recent headlines and prejudices - the pay-for-nothing FAI job, the lifestyle, showbiz missus, twitter gibberish etc. To exclude him from our top six players is puerile. All those goals and memories lost to petty cancel-culture.

[ontheotherhand]

I like your selection. Giles and Brady were undoubtedly world class. Roy just about, when the planets aligned. McGrath very close. But I'm disappointed with some posts about Robbie. A few fans' memories seem compromised by more recent headlines and prejudices - the pay-for-nothing FAI job, the lifestyle, showbiz missus, twitter gibberish etc. To exclude him from our top six players is puerile. All those goals and memories lost to petty cancel-culture.

None of that stuff should come into the equation. I wouldn't be too supportive of his stance on the FAI contract but anyone using that to say he isn't one of our best players ever is being unfair.