Saipan - 20 Years On

**ontheotherhand** · 13/05/2022, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by third policeman

Opinions are what this forum is about, and most of them are other peoples. It’s kind of the point of the exercise. Anyway happy to agree to differ on this. Just to be provocative, notwithstanding Keane’s status as the best Irish player of his era, I still think he’s overrated. If I had to pick a midfield 3 from my many years as an Ireland supporter it would be Giles, Brady and Ronnie Whelan, but that’s only an opinion.

You old fossil.

Sadly I didn't see much of those 3 but they'd beat my own 3! I'd have to go with Keane, Holland and Whelan. Jesus we've been starved for a while. Maybe Hoolahan....Cullen? Christ.

But look I respect your opinion. I'm just telling you it doesn't change my take which is based more on the order of events and leads me to my own opinion that McCarthy managed it really badly. I'm not saying "im looking at facts and you aren't". Your take is based on your opinion of the character of Roy Keane and that's entirely valid. He was and is a bit of a madman. I loved him for it though.

**CraftyToePoke** · 13/05/2022, 10:44 PM

They both f***ed it up

**ontheotherhand** · 13/05/2022, 10:46 PM

Good summary. Shall we wait another 20 years and revisit then?

**CraftyToePoke** · 13/05/2022, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

Good summary. Shall we wait another 20 years and revisit then?

Lets do that & not bother with it between now & then, because I'm of an age I may not be on here by then.

I was camp Keane, for the record, at the time & firmly. But the intervening years have showed us more of them both, Keane is never happy, its not about standards which he sold it on back then, its about being a cantankerous argumentative conflict led, never happy human being. Mick has been very off hand at times with some comments particularly in his second spell in charge, flippant stubborn and blunt with an arrogant dismissiveness.

Stick those two sets of character traits together on the runway to the most pressurised scrutinised bit of both their careers & it got to them, both of them & they f***ed it up.

They'd both like the chance to make it right but life doesn't offer that rewind button & they'll both never admit, that they f***ed it up & we can talk about it all we like.

**Snapshot** · 14/05/2022, 9:08 AM

Maybe McCarthy could have handled it better, but Keane's behaviour was without precedent. Placating him would have made the manager's role untenable. Would O'Neill have handled it better? Trapattoni? Big Jack? Giles? I doubt it - no manager with a spine would accept that level of abuse. Keane embarrassed himself and the country.

**osarusan** · 14/05/2022, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Diggs246

"Somehow ended up managing my country "

He is clearly stating that Mick is from a different country.

I wouldn't agree with that. It's possible, but not the only interpretation.

The 'my' doesn't have to indicate contrast. We hear players say stuff like 'It's an honour to represent my country'.

If the whole thing had happened with say Staunton as the manager, is it impossible that Keane would have said the exact same thing? I can imagine him saying it anyway.

**Diggs246** · 14/05/2022, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by osarusan

I wouldn't agree with that. It's possible, but not the only interpretation.

The 'my' doesn't have to indicate contrast. We hear players say stuff like 'It's an honour to represent my country'.

If the whole thing had happened with say Staunton as the manager, is it impossible that Keane would have said the exact same thing? I can imagine him saying it anyway.

No i don't think he does say it to stan if I'm honest

Its the full sentence which followed an abusive rant that should be analysed as a whole. "Somehow ended up managing my country" Somehow in this instance means your **** and my country means your a different nationality to me ( imo)
But you can't leave out the abusive nature of the rant previous to the "my country" business. Its an attack not a patriotic statement.

**Fixer82** · 14/05/2022, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by Diggs246

"Somehow ended up managing my country "

He is clearly stating that Mick is from a different country.

I don�t think you understand what the word �clearly� means.

**ontheotherhand** · 15/05/2022, 3:45 AM

Originally Posted by Snapshot

Maybe McCarthy could have handled it better, but Keane's behaviour was without precedent. Placating him would have made the manager's role untenable. Would O'Neill have handled it better? Trapattoni? Big Jack? Giles? I doubt it - no manager with a spine would accept that level of abuse. Keane embarrassed himself and the country.

You mean the O'Neill who hired Keane?

Yeah, I think he may have handled things a bit better.

**Snapshot** · 15/05/2022, 5:56 AM

Originally Posted by Snapshot

Maybe McCarthy could have handled it better, but Keane's behaviour was without precedent. Placating him would have made the manager's role untenable. Would O'Neill have handled it better? Trapattoni? Big Jack? Giles? I doubt it - no manager with a spine would accept that level of abuse. Keane embarrassed himself and the country.

Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

You mean the O'Neill who hired Keane

Yeah, I think he may have handled things a bit better.

No, an O'Neill called "a c**t and a w**ker" (by a player), an O'Neill told to stuff the "WC up your a*se. Insert any manager, outcome the same. Conduct: 10/10 unacceptable.

**ontheotherhand** · 15/05/2022, 6:30 AM

Originally Posted by Snapshot

No, an O'Neill called "a c**t and a w**ker" (by a player), an O'Neill told to stuff the "WC up your a*se. Insert any manager, outcome the same. Conduct: 10/10 unacceptable.

so you don't get the point?

**Snapshot** · 15/05/2022, 7:12 AM

Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

so you don't get the point?

Don�t start, please. Move on.

**John83** · 15/05/2022, 7:43 AM

Guys, if you find you're getting annoyed on this topic, that's normal, but walk away from an argument or take it to DMs.

**TonyD** · 15/05/2022, 6:27 PM

Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

Yeah I lean that way but I'm willing to concede that it may just have been incompetence. I'm probably arguing too far in one direction to be fair stu.

I'd say it was somewhere in the middle. He knew what he was doing but he was doing it in a rage and not thinking clearly. If they'd all taken a day to discuss it calmly we'd probably have a WC in the cabinet.

Probably have a World Cup in the cabinet ? Whatever about the Keane/McCarthy debate, that is just fanciful talk. Like the people who thought we could have won it in 1990. Was never happening.

**ontheotherhand** · 15/05/2022, 6:39 PM

Originally Posted by TonyD

Probably have a World Cup in the cabinet ? Whatever about the Keane/McCarthy debate, that is just fanciful talk. Like the people who thought we could have won it in 1990. Was never happening.

I wasn't being serious Tony. Trying to lighten things up a bit but as you can see above I couldn't even manage to lighten myself!

Apologies to Snapshot there as well. 20 years on and I'm still snapping. Maybe that's why I sided with Keane to begin with! 😅

**John83** · 16/05/2022, 2:30 AM

Originally Posted by TonyD

Probably have a World Cup in the cabinet ? Whatever about the Keane/McCarthy debate, that is just fanciful talk. Like the people who thought we could have won it in 1990. Was never happening.

It was a very long shot, but Greece won the Euros with a less capable team. A cup is always subject to a little luck.

**jbyrne** · 16/05/2022, 7:28 AM

maybe its a bit strong to say we could have won the 2002 WC but we did, at times, outplay a Germany side that went onto the final.
I don't believe Roy was fully fit for that WC but with him we did perform incredibly well in the qualification group containing portugal and holland with him in the side. We were very hard to beat and had a serious goal threat.
From memory Spain were 2nd favorites for the tournament when we played them in the second round. We should have won that game before it went to penalties.

Duff (in particular) and keane were two of the tournaments stand out players. Didn't Duff go on to get on the UEFA team of the year in 2002?

Its all speculation but I dont think its too fanciful to believe we could have gone another round or two with that team

**pineapple stu** · 16/05/2022, 7:52 AM

I think it helps that there weren't any stand-out teams at that World Cup really.

Germany weren't expected to get anywhere near the final - they were bottom of their Euro 2000 group with one point for example. Spain were still the big chokers on the international stage. France were the reigning World and Euro champions but were knocked out in the group stages without scoring a goal. Colombia were Copa America champions and didn't even qualify. It was open for an underdog run - South Korea (referee-assisted) and Turkey to the semis, but also Senegal and the US were in the quarters. It's still the only time five continents were represented at the quarter-final stage. So in a tournament that open, it's definitely tempting to think we could have gone further with our best player.

**seanfhear** · 16/05/2022, 10:48 AM

Brazil and Turkey were the only two teams that stood out in that World Cup.

**jbyrne** · 16/05/2022, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by third policeman

Just to be provocative, notwithstanding Keane�s status as the best Irish player of his era, I still think he�s overrated.

really? id actually think the complete opposite. i don't think he ever got the credit he was due when world / european player awards were being discussed for example.
definitely one of the most influential midfielders of his generation.