Saipan - 20 Years On

[pineapple stu]

The thing with that Spain game is what would he have done differently had he noticed anyway?

We were all over them at that stage, and in the second period, Spain pretty much had everyone behind the ball and were lumping clear. We'd used all our subs, including bringing Connolly and Quinn on for Harte and Kelly - so we had Keane, Duff, Connolly and Quinn all on the pitch.

I'm not sure what else could have been done really.

Can certainly agree on the frustration of starting Harte every time only to sub him off.

[elatedscum]

Staunton was too old and slow to play left full at that stage and Kilbane was an out and out midfielder, he only played in defence later in his career. So I'm not sure if that was a mistake or we just had no other option. I can't even think of any other good Irish left backs from that time that were left out of the squad, although maybe I'm forgetting someone.

you could argue denis irwin's decision to retire was down to mccarthy (or at least that was how it was explained to me as a 9 year old). he was still really good in the 2 seasons he played for wolves after the world cup, which probably cost him a place in the squad.

presumably delap was purely a midfielder at that point in his career? he went on to play left back for stoke. i remember he gave the ball away badly which led to a goal in one of the friendlies in the advance of the world cup.

John O'Shea perhaps?

[tetsujin1979]

I think Duff up front was an OK call, Quinn couldn't really play the full 90 by then so using Duff that way allowed Quinn to come on fresh later in the game. The next best option was probably Morrison, but when it came to it against Spain he brought on Connolly instead, who I never thought was international quality other than against the minnows. I think he should have brought on Morrison there.

Connolly was brought in because he was performing really well in training, definitely remember reading that he scored five times in a game

[Razors left peg]

Irwin was told by McCarthy in some game to "go and prove himself". Irwin rightly basically said F you and retired.

[Eirambler]

Yes possibly O'Shea. He made his debut in the run up to the tournament but McCarthy went for Andy O'Brien over him at centre back and never played him or Dunne at the tournament. I'm not sure how much O'Shea had played as a full back at that stage but he played there a fair bit for United afterwards.

[seanfhear]

Irwin was told by McCarthy in some game to "go and prove himself". Irwin rightly basically said F you and retired.

McCarthy badly mis-handled Denis Irwin alright. Irwin was still playing great stuff at that stage.

McCarthy made plenty of mistakes as did Roy Keane. I suppose the thing is, McCarthy was the manager and is supposed to be smarter than to be making such mistakes !!

[Eirambler]

Irwin was told by McCarthy in some game to "go and prove himself". Irwin rightly basically said F you and retired.

That was nuts from McCarthy. Irwin was 36 by the time the World Cup came around but could have offered useful cover for Harte.

It's a shame Irwin only ever played two finals games for Ireland, he just missed the 1990 World Cup at the start of his career and just missed 2002 at the end.

[ontheotherhand]

I'd agree fully with this take if Saipan (or something of similar "quality") had been the intended squad camp for the duration of the tournament. But, as someone else pointed out, it wasnt. It was a pitstop for a few days where the squad could relax, bond and do some light physical and tactical work. I think thats where that side of the argument falls down.

Until it resulted in players getting injured though. I think it was more than the training facilities though. It was the 3 flights they took en route, the lack of equipment and general chaos surrounding the whole camp. Even as rest and relaxation exercise it was a failure. Aside from the breezy jaunt up Suicide Hill of course.....

At least we can surely all agree that the FAI are a shower of tossers?

[John83]

Irwin was told by McCarthy in some game to "go and prove himself". Irwin rightly basically said F you and retired.

I see where he's coming from, but that sounds like vanity to me. At that level, if you don't always feel like you're proving yourself, your motivation is probably flagging. He was just leaving Man Utd - he'd clearly lost a yard of pace - and I'd interpret that quote as "show me why you should start ahead of Harte", which he had no automatic right to do at that point in their careers.

Yes possibly O'Shea. He made his debut in the run up to the tournament but McCarthy went for Andy O'Brien over him at centre back and never played him or Dunne at the tournament. I'm not sure how much O'Shea had played as a full back at that stage but he played there a fair bit for United afterwards.

O'Shea only really broke through at Man Utd the following year. He did that quite dramatically at left back, but I think he'd have been viewed as a talented but completely green centre half / right back at the time. It was only after he got his shot at left back at Man Utd the following season (I think there must have been injuries to Silvestre and Phil Neville) that it was clear he could play men's football to a high level across the back four. I never saw him play as well again at full back as that first season. I think they must have coached his attacking instincts out of him to improve his defending, but watching him nutmeg Figo before bombing up the wing against Real Madrid was glorious. Anyway, McCarthy would have taken a risk to take him; even if it might have worked out brilliantly in hindsight, I don't think it was a strange decision at the time.

At least we can surely all agree that the FAI are a shower of tossers?

I think it's the site motto.

[jbyrne]

Reading it again 20 years on just reinforces my view that he didn't want to be there and if they had somehow made it to Japan he'd have just walked out over something else anyway.

Have always thought that he was injured at the time and his frustration that he knew he wasn't going to be in proper physical condition for the tournament contributed to his mood.
Probably a small thing but I remember discussing with a few friends at one of the warm up games a couple of weeks before (Nigeria I think) that Roy looked very out of sorts.
The fact that he needed a hip operation that summer might back up my theory.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Reactions to Keane's interview will of course differ from person-to-person, and some might see no harm in it. But I think you can't treat it as if it's in a vacuum, it came after Keane's behavior at the camp was already bothering players and coaches, after he told people he was leaving, then staying and a constant sense that the man treated his team-mates as some terrible burden. You can easily imagine a degree of frustration building about the man, then he takes a few swipes in a newspaper. Considering Keane's club background, under a manager practically famous for a mantra that you never, ever criticise your own players in public, if it was just a case of comments with no genuine ill-intention Keane is the one player in the squad who should have known better. But I think he was in a low place, didn't really want to stay even if he had just said he did, and thus no longer cared about those kinds of things. He had checked out internally.

[seanfhear]

One can only wonder that except for his, football talent = = Where would Roy Keane have ended up otherwise ?

[Fixer82]

Not sure McCarthy would have done anything different had he known Spain were down to 10.
We were all over them by the end of it.

Breen had a chance, Connolly came close too

[sbgawa]

I'd agree fully with this take if Saipan (or something of similar "quality") had been the intended squad camp for the duration of the tournament. But, as someone else pointed out, it wasnt. It was a pitstop for a few days where the squad could relax, bond and do some light physical and tactical work. I think thats where that side of the argument falls down.

Fair point but even for light training for a few days a rock hard pitch and no "skips" with the kit is unacceptable.
Keane had a point which imo he should have been able to get over but if Mick had done his job it wouldn't have arisen

[jbyrne]

Fair point but even for light training for a few days a rock hard pitch and no "skips" with the kit is unacceptable.
Keane had a point which imo he should have been able to get over but if Mick had done his job it wouldn't have arisen

to be fair, i dont think its the managers responsibility to ensure the equipment arrives. there was a probably a few logistics personnel employed to look after these things. I would be very worried if there wasn't.

i cant believe that i am debating this again 20 years later!

[seanfhear]

Goes to show it hasn't been a great 20 years of international football for the Republic of Ireland.

[Fixer82]

The buck stops with the manger but I feel a bit for McCarthy cos it seems someone royally fu##ed up with the gear and the skips.
The team flew to Holland first because they did a deal with the Dutch FA to purchase their tickets/flight because they'd assumed they'd be going and not us.

FAI are the real culprits at the back of it all. Amateur organisation. And in our time of need when we need a real hero, one stepped in.....John Delaney

[NeverFeltBetter]

And it was during that transfer that Keane had the opportunity to have a pop at some journalists who had written unflattering things regards his non-appearance at the Niall Quinn testimonial.

[Kingdom]

to have a pop at some journalists

I referred to that earlier

[Diggs246]

Reactions to Keane's interview will of course differ from person-to-person, and some might see no harm in it. But I think you can't treat it as if it's in a vacuum, it came after Keane's behavior at the camp was already bothering players and coaches, after he told people he was leaving, then staying and a constant sense that the man treated his team-mates as some terrible burden. You can easily imagine a degree of frustration building about the man, then he takes a few swipes in a newspaper. Considering Keane's club background, under a manager practically famous for a mantra that you never, ever criticise your own players in public, if it was just a case of comments with no genuine ill-intention Keane is the one player in the squad who should have known better. But I think he was in a low place, didn't really want to stay even if he had just said he did, and thus no longer cared about those kinds of things. He had checked out internally.

Did you do the same thing at man utd. I think it was on their in-house tv channel
Criticised the utd team etc. Ferguson sacked him on the spot.