Innocent Muslims treated like Irish in70's London

[dahamsta]

Great posts Steve.

So that's the kind of spam that people sit and write on their laptops all day. Now I know why you have posted here 3,400 times.

I have a high post count because I've been here since Day One. In fact I made Day One. I have to deal with posters that come up with unsubstantiated, inaccurate arguments and try to set them on the right track. Like yourself, for example. Here's a tip to get you started: If you're in a discussion with someone about a major issue, trying viewing their profile and reading some of their older posts to get a feel for them. In my case you would have discovered in pretty short order that I run this site, and I'm not really the best person to pick a fight with. And here's tip number two: Pick your fights carefully.

Just how many taxi drivers do you know, have a lifetime subscription to the Star??

It was an analogy. And since it should be obvious to anyone with half a brain that it was an analogy, there are only two possible reasons for your response, one being that you're reaching. The other should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.

(I should really be careful with statements like that. Someone could get hurt.)

This is a thread on a serious issue. We don't have to read wild and unfounded generalisations against posters, that have nothing to do with it.

What's wild and unfounded? As Steve has so eloquently pointed out, your points are oversimplified, generalistic, sectarian and stereotypical. You can disagree with that if you like, but I'm afraid you'd be wrong.

adam

[Metrostars]

Interesting article by Tom Friedman about islamic suicide bombers:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/op...man&oref=login

Also at work is Sunni Islam's struggle with modernity. Islam has a long tradition of tolerating other religions, but only on the basis of the supremacy of Islam, not equality with Islam. Islam's self-identity is that it is the authentic and ideal expression of monotheism. Muslims are raised with the view that Islam is God 3.0, Christianity is God 2.0, Judaism is God 1.0, and Hinduism is God 0.0.

Part of what seems to be going on with these young Muslim males is that they are, on the one hand, tempted by Western society, and ashamed of being tempted. On the other hand, they are humiliated by Western society because while Sunni Islamic civilization is supposed to be superior, its decision to ban the reform and reinterpretation of Islam since the 12th century has choked the spirit of innovation out of Muslim lands, and left the Islamic world less powerful, less economically developed, less technically advanced than God 2.0, 1.0 and 0.0.

"Some of these young Muslim men are tempted by a civilization they consider morally inferior, and they are humiliated by the fact that, while having been taught their faith is supreme, other civilizations seem to be doing much better," said Raymond Stock, the Cairo-based biographer and translator of Naguib Mahfouz. "When the inner conflict becomes too great, some are turned by recruiters to seek the sick prestige of 'martyrdom' by fighting the allegedly unjust occupation of Muslim lands and the 'decadence' in our own."

This is not about the poverty of money. This is about the poverty of dignity and the rage it can trigger.

[paul_oshea]

Islam has a long tradition of tolerating other religions, but only on the basis of the supremacy of Islam, not equality with Islam.

exactly what i was saying earlier.

so what he is saying is that, they are caught between the cutting sword, somewhat guilt ridden, they feel hard done by in one sense but on the other they dont, but yet a real sense that they have to do something about it. its an interesting piece alright.

[dcfcsteve]

steve, thats not wholly true either, there aim is to kill "infidels" as i exlpained earlier what the "old" meaning of infidel is, a non beleiver/follower of islam.

Most groups that carry out these attacks have said in the past, we apologise beforehand if brothers of islam get caught up in our tirade against the infidels of the western world. so is that not saying something in itself?

To be totally accurate Pual - their aim is to spread Islam through 'spectaculars' (i.e. big attacks) that will make people sit-up and notice. Whomsoever they kill in doing so - even if it's other fundamentalist Muslims - is irrelevant to them.

All Muslims have a religious duty to spread the word of Islam (most other religions bar Judaism likewise have an Evangelical element). Moderate Muslims believe that engaging 'Infidels' in dialgue etc is the way to convert them. Extremists believe that the process needs to be begun all over again even for most of what are currently considered 'Muslims'. The corrupting influence of the West is now so great in traditionally Muslim societies, they believe, that these people are now actually no longer Muslims. The way to counteract this corrupting influence - both within and without Muslim societies - is therefore by launching specacular attacks that will shake everyone out of their current corrupted state.

[dcfcsteve]

steve, dont be too oversighted here, it doesn't necessarily matter what country they struck in, but where, what and who they struck in that country. follow..???

I know Paul - but I was specifically answering 'My Posts' rather simplistic summation that 'Attack on a Christian city = attack on Christians/Christianity'

Thanks also for the explanation of Jihad and the book references - but without trying to blow sunshine up me own arse, I'm relatively well-informed on Islam as it is.... Plus I've got this week's Beano to fit-in somewhere yet....

[paul_oshea]

The way to counteract this corrupting influence - both within and without Muslim societies - is therefore by launching specacular attacks that will shake everyone out of their current corrupted state.The corrupting influence of the West is now so great in traditionally Muslim societies, they believe, that THESE PEOPLE are now actually no longer Muslims.

Are you refering to those that preach and "brainwash" people to become suicide bombers or the suicide bombers themselves? i think you mean all. if so then explain to me why people that have adopted and embraced western culture, whilst at the same time sticking to their beliefs, blew up a bar in israel, and blew up 3 tubes and a bus?

[dcfcsteve]

Islam has a long tradition of tolerating other religions, but only on the basis of the supremacy of Islam, not equality with Islam.

Name me any other major world religion that doesn't believe they are right and everyone else is wrong ?

So Christianity doesn't believe it is the only true faith, and doesn't look down on non-believers ? Why are words like 'heathen' and 'pagan' so negatively loaded within the English language then ?

As for Judaism - just like Islam it has its own word for Infidels (Gentiles). Does this not also suggest supremacy ?

Hindus and Buddhists may not aim to do-down other religions, but their faith is still heavily based on a belief that they offer the only/best route to nirvana/heaven/enlightenment/reincarnation or whetever.

It's a fundamental tenant of religions to assert that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Obviously so - as a means of attracting and retaining members. This is in no ways peculair to Islam.

[paul_oshea]

Obviously so - as a means of attracting and retaining members. This is in no ways peculair to Islam.

maybe not, but it is certainly more forceful.

[dcfcsteve]

Are you refering to those that preach and "brainwash" people to become suicide bombers or the suicide bombers themselves? i think you mean all. if so then explain to me why people that have adopted and embraced western culture, whilst at the same time sticking to their beliefs, blew up a bar in israel, and blew up 3 tubes and a bus?

The words "these people" above referred to Muslims who are supposedly corrupted to such an extent that they are no longer considered Muslims by the extremists. I wasn't referring to the bombers or anyone else.

As for the suicide bombers you mentioned above - firstly, I'm not here to explain/justify the motives of suicide bombers, beyond the broad ideologies that I'm lead to believe they work to (as explained above). Secondly - they may well have been born/raised in the Western culture, but they all appear to have turned their back on that culture at a later stage. Continuing to appear as if they embraced that western culture (not having the Islamic beard, wearing Western clothes etc) are tactics taught to sleeper cells to avoid drawing attention to themselves in advance of operations. Beyond that I understandably can't explain to you the individual motivations involved for these people in their apparent combination of Western beliefs/lifestyle and radical Islam.

[paul_oshea]

The words "these people" above referred to Muslims who are supposedly corrupted to such an extent that they are no longer considered Muslims by the extremists. I wasn't referring to the bombers or anyone else.

no steve, i know but you are saying these people as in muslims in the western world, but these were the same people recruited by the "extremists", to blow themselves up. so that is a contradiction of sorts, I just dont fully agree with what you are saying.

Beyond that I understandably can't explain to you the individual motivations involved for these people in their apparent combination of Western beliefs/lifestyle and radical Islam.

I should hope you cant!!!!

[dcfcsteve]

no steve, i know but you are saying these people as in muslims in the western world, but these were the same people recruited by the "extremists", to blow themselves up. so that is a contradiction of sorts, I just dont fully agree with what you are saying.

Sorry Paul - but I was saying the opposite. "These people" was preceeded by the words "in traditionally Muslim Societies" - which are obviously not Western countries.

Divin't worry Paul - my Ma's from Roiscommon, and her eyesight's a bit ropey as well....

[Plastic Paddy]

It's a fundamental tenant of religions to assert that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

It's "tenet", not "tenant", but to say such is to be nit-picky and to overlook the major point, which is that I agree with just about every assertion you've made.

Mypost - read and learn. Please.

PP

PS - "blowing sunshine up my own arse" - - I must remember that one...

[paul_oshea]

Sorry Paul - but I was saying the opposite. "These people" was preceeded by the words "in traditionally Muslim Societies" - which are obviously not Western countries.

ok, im still confused!! cos i thought you were saying:
the corrupting influence of the West is now so great in traditionally Muslim societies, they believe, that THESE PEOPLE are now actually no longer Muslims.

"these people" being the ones that have left the "traditionally muslim countries" i.e. the ones living in western societies i.e. the ones that blew themselves up last week. "they" being the extremists in the "traditional muslim countries" e.g. pakistan, who beleive "these people" are no longer muslims. yes? cos thats what i meant before.

btw what and where is "western cultures" defined????

[dcfcsteve]

ok, im still confused!! cos i thought you were saying:
the corrupting influence of the West is now so great in traditionally Muslim societies, they believe, that THESE PEOPLE are now actually no longer Muslims.

"these people" being the ones that have left the "traditionally muslim countries" i.e. the ones living in western societies i.e. the ones that blew themselves up last week. "they" being the extremists in the "traditional muslim countries" e.g. pakistan, who beleive "these people" are no longer muslims. yes? cos thats what i meant before.

btw what and where is "western cultures" defined????

You've got the first bit right. Basically - extremists believe that the vast majority of Muslims living in traditionally Muslim societies (e.g. Egypt, Saudi, Turkey etc) have become so corrupted by Western ideology/culture/habits that they can no longer be considered Muslims (the phrase used is 'abjurists' - i.e. those who have discarded the religion). Therefore, the extremists argue that ordinary Muslims in Muslim countries are now fair game for them without contradicting the teachings of the Koran.

It's not about the ones who've left - it's about ALL Muslims - particularly those in traditionally Muslim societies.

[lopez]

One thing that has been overlooked I believe is the power of 'brainwashing'. This corner of Islam is not much different from the Rev Moon and the mass suicide a good few years back in Guyana of those post nuptials. The striking thing about the three Leeds lads (and the two blokes who bombed Mike's Bar (?) in Tel Aviv) is the previously harmless lives they led, say a year prior to their attacks. Six weeks in a religious school in Pakistan is a hell of lot of time when compared with a story I heard from a aquaintance years ago who could feel himself being psychologically manipulated and bullied just by being alone a couple of hours with some Moonies whilst out fishing off San Francisco.

[paul_oshea]

the moons are a funny bunch alright. start with that alfie fella for god sake.

no, there are a few lads i know here and if you get into a discussion with them about anything related to islam, they will argue and argue, but its not necessarily what they are saying, its how htey say it, and the force, that manipulates you.

steve, that is what i was saying all along. but the guys that did it were living in western societies. so that kinda contradicts your point.

[dcfcsteve]

steve, that is what i was saying all along. but the guys that did it were living in western societies. so that kinda contradicts your point.

But they'd turned their back on Western society spiritually - only maintaining an outword appearance of still embracing it in order to not blow their cover. I don't see how there is a contradiction there - Al Qaeda's view of whether you're a true Muslim or not is not solely based upon geography, but upon your mind-set.

Anyways - that's an underlying explanation of how Al Qaeda get round the Koranic decree that Muslims shouldn't kill Muslims. Beyond that, I can't really answer any apparent contradictions done by individuals within their movement.

[GavinZac]

Well, what do you expect??

Muslims took advantage of freedoms, (that they profess to despise ) in a civilised Christian country, walked calmly into train stations, and buses to destroy them, and those in them. Of course, there will be reprisals. It's human nature to seek revenge when you have been attacked. Though they killed and injured their fellow Muslims, their intention was to massacre Christians. So Christians are going to retaliate to that.

Those involved in the plotting of the London and Madrid bombings should be locked up in Guantanamo Bay, where they could do no harm to anyone else who don't share their beliefs. The Americans take no chances with terror suspects, arrest them, and promptly put them in captivity, out of harms way. The British Government however, let all kinds of undesirables into their country at will, and don't track their movements, because they don't know where they are. In view of their laissez-faire attitude to dealing with terror suspects, the London bombings were unfortunately, inevitable.

thats about as right as your suggestion that holding up the ball should be a foul.

[GavinZac]

If it was not an attack by Muslims on Christians, what was it? Where were the bombs detonated? Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Africa? No, it was London. London is capital of the United Kingdom. The UK, despite it's presence of many faiths, is a predominantly Christian country. It's a tolerant, democratic, free, Western country. Muslims, or Islamic extremists, (if you want to be more PC), abused that tolerance, and freedom with the aim of attacking Christians. Whether or not other peoples were killed/injured is of little consequence to them. 55 people were killed, with 700+ injured. The vast majority of them were Christians, people like you or me. That's what they want, ultimately. They claim it is revenge for Muslims killed/injured as a result of the UK's foreign policies. But there is a distinct difference: UK forces do not intend to kill/maim innocent civilians when on duty, whereas Islamic terrorists deliberately set out to cause widespread damage, and destruction, with mass casualties. London was not bombed accidentally.

yes, thanks, we've established that the bombs were indeed in london, but the fact remains that it was four kids from yorkshire that killed some commuters, it was not an organised faith-wide-jihad against all christians in london. you've ridiculed yourself by saying that its the UK Gov's fault for "letting these people in" (you racist scum), when it was four english boys of a warped muslim faith who did this.

[GavinZac]

My post,

Your lack of even a basic level of knowledge and understanding regarding Al Qaeda and recent world events would be laughable/pitiful, where it not fuelling such a dangerous and inaccuaret viewpoint.....

It is completely and utterly wrong to say that the attack on London was intended as a Muslim attack upon Christians. To prove this, I'm happy to roll for a moment with your theory that the location of Al Qaeda attacks clarifies what their purpose and targets are.....

Since the World Trade Centre bombings in 2001 there have been 7 terrorist attacks around the globe attributed directly to Al Qaeda :

2002 : Djerba, Bali & Mombasa.
2003 : Casablanca and Istanbul.
2004 : Madrid
2005 : London

i agree on the whole, steve, but even you've missed the point that the label al-Qaeda has been bandied about for every islamic motivated attack; al-Qaeda is an off shoot of the Mughadeen of afghanistan, it is one of many islamic jihad groups, that has been, by the power vest in the US Media, singularised as the greatest evil threat against the west, and hence have been elevated to hero status by wannabe extremists. theres no evidence to suggest that al-Qaeda had anything to do with these train bombings, except a post on an internet site claiming "loyalty" to al-Qaeda.

ok, you guys, i did it. i bombed those trains

[SIZE=1]its easy to make stuff up on the internet[/SIZE]

its oversimplification on points like these (that theres one aggressive group of muslims) that leads to idiots like mypost creating some final crusade in their minds.