Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[outspoken]

No fear of that third tier coming in for a long time yet. Another failure of the "new FAI"

[legendz]

As far as I remember JMC played for Derry 1st team XI.

https://www.extratime.com/fixtures/2...0967/4/report/
A match report from the A Championship in 2008.

[Burnsie]

If there's a third tier up and running before 2026 - and I won't be holding my breath - it'll just be a glorified reserve league padded out by a university or two and a couple of those league representative sides like CK and Mayo.

When Scanlon went on OTB he spoke about connecting it downward as well as upwards - i.e. to creta a pyramid. There's not a shaggin hope of that this decade.

[legendz]

If there's a third tier up and running before 2026 - and I won't be holding my breath - it'll just be a glorified reserve league padded out by a university or two and a couple of those league representative sides like CK and Mayo.

When Scanlon went on OTB he spoke about connecting it downward as well as upwards - i.e. to creta a pyramid. There's not a shaggin hope of that this decade.

It will mainly be a reserve or U23 league. Carlow Kilkenny, Kildare, Mayo and Monaghan are the only likely clubs to join from the youth leagues. Bernard O'Byrne in Meath is the only other non LoI area suggesting possible future interest.

[EatYerGreens]

It will mainly be a reserve or U23 league. Carlow Kilkenny, Kildare, Mayo and Monaghan are the only likely clubs to join from the youth leagues. Bernard O'Byrne in Meath is the only other non LoI area suggesting possible future interest.

Ballymun United also expressed interest in it about 18mths ago.

[Martinho II]

https://www.extratime.com/fixtures/2...0967/4/report/
A match report from the A Championship in 2008.

Never knew that legendz. After that though McLean did play definitely for Derry City in the premier division.

[nigel-harps1954]

It will mainly be a reserve or U23 league. Carlow Kilkenny, Kildare, Mayo and Monaghan are the only likely clubs to join from the youth leagues. Bernard O'Byrne in Meath is the only other non LoI area suggesting possible future interest.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. There'll be a couple of intermediate sides who'll look to step in too.

[legendz]

There'll be a couple of intermediate sides who'll look to step in too.

Will those intermediate clubs be joining the youth leagues as well? It should be a prerequisite.

[JC_GUFC]

At the moment the issue that it really isn’t financially viable for any club to join LoI.
If prize money were to be increased and a club could join the league and not immediately lose 100k in their first season then it would become more attractive.

Aside from those potentials mentioned where else could actually sustain a LoI team? Definitely Tipp has potential and Mullingar have been mentioned previously but aside from that it’s likely you’d just be getting extra clubs from towns/cities who already have a representative.
Even more Dublin clubs? Mervue/Salthill again? Limerick FC rivalling Treaty? A Northside Cork club?
None of these are really ideal… The obvious expansion is the All-Ireland League.

[outspoken]

At the moment the issue that it really isn’t financially viable for any club to join LoI.
If prize money were to be increased and a club could join the league and not immediately lose 100k in their first season then it would become more attractive.

Aside from those potentials mentioned where else could actually sustain a LoI team? Definitely Tipp has potential and Mullingar have been mentioned previously but aside from that it’s likely you’d just be getting extra clubs from towns/cities who already have a representative.
Even more Dublin clubs? Mervue/Salthill again? Limerick FC rivalling Treaty? A Northside Cork club?
None of these are really ideal… The obvious expansion is the All-Ireland League.

Mullingar will never join the LOI. Those days are long gone

[culloty82]

Portlaoise evidently has potential, based on their FAI Cup run this year, but is there a broader soccer infrastructure in Laois to sustain a senior club? The AIL would definitely seem to be a runner at Premier Division level, but beyond those 16-18 clubs, you would presumably have to regionalise straight afterwards - can't imagine Warrenpoint travelling to play Kerry, or Ballinamallard hosting Wexford would be financially viable in the long-term.

[Kiki Balboa]

Portlaoise evidently has potential, based on their FAI Cup run this year, but is there a broader soccer infrastructure in Laois to sustain a senior club? The AIL would definitely seem to be a runner at Premier Division level, but beyond those 16-18 clubs, you would presumably have to regionalise straight afterwards - can't imagine Warrenpoint travelling to play Kerry, or Ballinamallard hosting Wexford would be financially viable in the long-term.

Chicken and the egg stuff, no? Having a LOI team surley helps build the soccer infrastructure around an area. For when you look through the Fai Junior and intermediate cups, most teams are from areas with already with LOI representation (this year being an exception).

[JC_GUFC]

Mullingar will never join the LOI. Those days are long gone

Well probably not from that owner but in terms of a population base it potentially could sustain a club. Do Longford or Athlone draw much support from Mullingar do you know?

Portlaoise evidently has potential, based on their FAI Cup run this year, but is there a broader soccer infrastructure in Laois to sustain a senior club? The AIL would definitely seem to be a runner at Premier Division level, but beyond those 16-18 clubs, you would presumably have to regionalise straight afterwards - can't imagine Warrenpoint travelling to play Kerry, or Ballinamallard hosting Wexford would be financially viable in the long-term.

Yes - all suggestions have been to have regional divisions below that - one of the major issues I think for the Northern clubs is the huge increase in travel costs and also the amount of time players will need to travel to games.

In terms of the lower tier I suppose the question then becomes are clubs like Finn Harps and Longford in the Northern region with the former NIFL clubs or would they stick with playing the LoI clubs? It probably wouldn't do much for the long-term viability of the league if it was purely geographical and the two promoted teams (assuming a promotion from both Championship North and South) were both ex-LoI clubs.

Although it goes against everything a league stands for there would need to be some protection to ensure that a minimum number of former NIFL clubs remained in the top flight.

[Longfordian]

We used to get some regulars coming from Mullingar years ago when we were successful but not any more. As far as I know. They didn't like Athlone Town so they'd rather go to Longford.

[EalingGreen]

The obvious expansion is the All-Ireland League.

So what you're saying is that since you're seemingly incapable of expanding your domestic league in the same way as just about every other comparable European country (eg Wales, NI, Iceland, Finland), you should instead try something which no other European country has managed to do?

That is, ignore completely FIFA and UEFA's strict jurisdictions and boundaries etc and combine with the league of another country, a league which incidentally shows no inclination to join any such scheme.

No offence, JC, and I do enjoy your other posts, but this is pie-in-the-sky thinking.

[JC_GUFC]

So what you're saying is that since you're seemingly incapable of expanding your domestic league in the same way as just about every other comparable European country (eg Wales, NI, Iceland, Finland), you should instead try something which no other European country has managed to do?

That is, ignore completely FIFA and UEFA's strict jurisdictions and boundaries etc and combine with the league of another country, a league which incidentally shows no inclination to join any such scheme.

No offence, JC, and I do enjoy your other posts, but this is pie-in-the-sky thinking.

Obviously I meant with agreement from IFA/NIFL etc. Not that the FAI would recreate "Belfast Celtic" and have them play LoI!

There just aren't many large towns left in Ireland that aren't represented by a football team, or have been mentioned as a potential new club.

Looking at NI, as it's the one I'm most familiar with, though the NIFL Premiership has done well in recent seasons there was also a recent report about the lack of crowds in the Championship, that's because many of the clubs are small "junior" clubs with little catchment area. Even from Belfast you have Welders, Knockbreda and Dundela all from the same general area where presumably there are a large number of Glentoran fans. Welders have a lovely new ground so have the most potential but this would be similar to the likes of Ballymun or Crumlin or Killester joining the 3rd tier in League of Ireland.

To me the all-Ireland league isn't complete pie-in-the-sky and UEFA definitely seemed to have viewed proposals somewhat favourably, if all parties were in agreement. It's one way for them to strengthen the smaller leagues.

[legendz]

At the moment the issue that it really isn’t financially viable for any club to join LoI.
If prize money were to be increased and a club could join the league and not immediately lose 100k in their first season then it would become more attractive.

All clubs have to cut their cloth. The league also has to cut its cloth. A self sustainable league will generate revenue through sponsorship and TV deals.
Prize money wasn't a deterrent for Kerry. The goal is to have senior football for the area and a pathway for young players. The costs for the youth leagues seems reasonable based on the clubs that have joined. The third tier should be similarly feasible
The third tier, if it happens, will be doing well to have 4 first teams and 6 reserve teams in time.

[EalingGreen]

Obviously I meant with agreement from IFA/NIFL etc. Not that the FAI would recreate "Belfast Celtic" and have them play LoI!

Fair dues.

There just aren't many large towns left in Ireland that aren't represented by a football team, or have been mentioned as a potential new club.

Looking at NI, as it's the one I'm most familiar with, though the NIFL Premiership has done well in recent seasons there was also a recent report about the lack of crowds in the Championship, that's because many of the clubs are small "junior" clubs with little catchment area. Even from Belfast you have Welders, Knockbreda and Dundela all from the same general area where presumably there are a large number of Glentoran fans. Welders have a lovely new ground so have the most potential but this would be similar to the likes of Ballymun or Crumlin or Killester joining the 3rd tier in League of Ireland.

When you look at eg Sligo or Ballybofey, Ballinamallard or Loughgall, you don't necessarily need large towns to sustain a Senior football club, if only on a p-t basis.
Remember, with a population of 2m, NI manages (just about!) to sustain 24 senior clubs. Yet ROI, with 2.5 x times the population, struggles to sustain 20. (Or 17, if you "exclude" DCFC from outwith the jurisdiction; UCD, an amateur? college side; and Kerry FC, who are yet to become fully established.)
I have no doubt that there is enough interest and sufficient resources in ROI to support many more clubs at a decent level, if only it was organised better. Take Greater Dublin, for example, with its population of 1.25m. The city supports just four Senior clubs + UCD, while as you say, with a population barely half that, Belfast has four Senior clubs in the Prem, plus another four in the Championship. Granted only two of the former are f-t with the other two hybrid, while the Championship clubs are all definitely smaller than you'd like, but they get by nonetheless.

Further, I don't understand this apparent (near) obsession of the LOI in exploring virgin football territory, planting a flag in the middle of a field somewhere and hoping to build a new football club round it. I mean, there's probably a good reason why eg Mayo has never had a senior football team before now.
Far better imo to build in well-established football country, from the centre out.
And this doesn't just apply to Dublin and district, there is no good reason why eg a city the size of Cork could not support two distinct Senior teams, rather than the same one in a different guise every few years. Similarly, while eg Institute are never going to challenge the dominance of the big Belfast clubs in the IL, nonetheless they do consititute (no pun intended) a second Senior club in the city of Derry.

To me the all-Ireland league isn't complete pie-in-the-sky and UEFA definitely seemed to have viewed proposals somewhat favourably, if all parties were in agreement. It's one way for them to strengthen the smaller leagues.

I am not against the idea in principle, indeed I would support it if I thought it could be made to work, but I cannot for the life of me see how it could.
For while UEFA haven't said a firm "No", then again they've never actually had to, since there's never been a firm proposal. By contrast, they've always been at best lukewarm about other proposed trans-national leagues eg the Scandi countries, or Benelux, not least since it would go against the whole principle of separate, independent National Associations, each with its own jurisdiction and territory etc. All of which was before the spectre of the (trans-national) European Super League, which is/was absolute poison to them.
Then you've the opposition of the IFA, if they thought it would erode their own independence and separate integrity, or come to threaten the NI international team. (While a few "blazers" in the FAI mightn't be too satisfied at having to "squeeze up", either!).
And that's before you faced the likely opposition from a section of football fans in NI, whether of club or country or both. While certain NI clubs would also be opposed, most prominently Cliftonville.
Meanwhile there are practical problems of whether UEFA would permit this small island, with its relatively minor league to retain 7 or 8 guaranteed European places - really can't see it myself.
Nor can we overlook the thorny problem of whether this new league would play a Summer season or a Winter one - good luck with squaring that circle!

But apart from that...

[EalingGreen]

A self sustainable league will generate revenue through sponsorship and TV deals.... ... The third tier, if it happens, will be doing well to have 4 first teams and 6 reserve teams in time.

Out of interest, how much sponsorship and TV money do you think such a league (4 + 6) would generate?

I'm guessing somewhere between bugger-all and less than that.

[legendz]

Out of interest, how much sponsorship and TV money do you think such a league (4 + 6) would generate?

I'm guessing somewhere between bugger-all and less than that.

Two separate topics. Prize money regards Premier Division. Second topic, likely composition of a third tier.