Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

**nigel-harps1954** · 07/02/2022, 6:11 PM

Key LOI related bullet points:

Commence consultation on the formation of an Irish football pyramid by Q4, 2022 with an agreed and transformed football pyramid structure in place by 2025
A third tier in the League of Ireland by 2023 and a second tier in the Women’s National League by 2025
A top 30 UEFA league co-efficient for the League of Ireland by 2025
Full-time staff targets working within League of Ireland clubs to be agreed
Academy certification system introduced with the League of Ireland by 2023

**Longfordian** · 07/02/2022, 6:24 PM

Good luck with bullets 1 and 3. The rest are feasible, if ambitious.

**pineapple stu** · 07/02/2022, 6:37 PM

Yeah, just to put 30th in the UEFA rankings in context, at the end of last year it was Poland with 15.125. That'll increase by 2025 with the Conference League allowing more teams second (or third) chances, and we've already got our first two markers for it - 1.875 and 2.875 from 2021 and 2020. So we probably need at least 4.000 per year for the next three years to hit that target. And I don't think it's possible to change that quickly to be honest.

I mean, aim for it for sure. I just hope it's not a sign the plan is a bit long on aspiration and short on practicality

**SeanDrog** · 07/02/2022, 6:40 PM

Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

Key LOI related bullet points:

A top 30 UEFA league co-efficient for the League of Ireland by 2025

I wonder how they believe they can directly influence this at the FAI level. Genuinely interested.

**Hitman** · 07/02/2022, 7:57 PM

Originally Posted by SeanDrog

I wonder how they believe they can directly influence this at the FAI level. Genuinely interested.

By creating the environment for success presumably.

**EatYerGreens** · 07/02/2022, 8:25 PM

Originally Posted by SeanDrog

I wonder how they believe they can directly influence this at the FAI level. Genuinely interested.

The problem is that they need to have some sort of benchmark and target for the league improving in quality, and they're arem;y many of those available. I guess they could've gone for 'a club in European groups stages every other year' similar to the ambition for the national teams.

**pineapple stu** · 07/02/2022, 8:31 PM

Originally Posted by SeanDrog

I wonder how they believe they can directly influence this at the FAI level. Genuinely interested.

Increase funding is the obvious one I guess. Hard when the FAI's broke though.

I'm tempted to say "increase supports for clubs", but that's just words with no real substance.

Otherwise...yeah, not sure.

**sbgawa** · 07/02/2022, 8:33 PM

Unless the FAI have gotten assurances from Government of funding none of this makes any difference and or sense.
We are conditioned to living off scraps but if the Government committed as much to the LOI as the greyhounds we could have full time academy set ups with paid coaches and make a start on improving facilities at all LOI clubs.
The fact that none of this money is likely to come means the FAI "ambitions" are to basically cheerlead and hope that Rovers or someone else get group stages while doing nothing more than clapping and staying out of the way.
The fact that they are attaching themselves to a vanity project says it all really

**sadloserkid** · 07/02/2022, 9:46 PM

The more I think about it the more likely I think it is that next season's 3-tier league will consist of three divisions of six teams left and we'll actually lose a club rather than gaining any new ones. Might even lose two clubs and get Rovers II again. Would be very FAI.

**EalingGreen** · 07/02/2022, 9:53 PM

I must say, I'm very impressed by the FAI's ability to spin this waffle out to 68 pages!

The IFA equivalent only managed a paltry 18 pages - and it goes out to 2027!
https://www.irishfa.com/media/37518/...-2022-2027.pdf

Maybe the difference is that yours is a "Strategy", whereas ours is a mere "Roadmap"?

Or maybe Hill is being paid by the word?

I suppose it keeps Powerpoint in business, but either way, some rare oul ******** in the both of them lol.

**Nesta99** · 08/02/2022, 2:41 PM

With semantics generally very important in Northern Ireland maybe it was just least said soonest mended. FAI has no shortage of documents to indulge in some rehashing waffle!

**sbgawa** · 08/02/2022, 3:22 PM

Originally Posted by sadloserkid

The more I think about it the more likely I think it is that next season's 3-tier league will consist of three divisions of six teams left and we'll actually lose a club rather than gaining any new ones. Might even lose two clubs and get Rovers II again. Would be very FAI.

Current two divisions i reckon but with a third division made up of Kerry , Mayo , Club Kildare. Carlow/Kilkenny, Limerick (see below), Cavan Monaghan, Shamrock Rovers ii + maybe 1 or two other reserve teams.
The FAI can by way of grant cover the expenses for the entry of a senior team by the areas with a current underage set up (above) and call it a continuation of the underage setup pipeline.
Fielding the team will be easy just play this years under 19s as a senior team next year instead of those kids going off to play junior football plus a few local lads who like the idea of playing LOI
Also lets not forget Irish Sea FC + any other randomers that i haven't considered here

(Limerick FC (as opposed to Treaty have teams in the underage system and have applied for a senior licence)

**Buller** · 08/02/2022, 4:51 PM

https://twitter.com/FAIreland/status...33802915053570

FAI to inject an extra �1.5m into Grassroots football in 2022, in addition to the �2m in COVID-19 resilience funding from Government.

The Government has already awarded �2m in COVID-19 relief funding which will see �1.9m go directly to clubs and �100k to affiliates via an application process agreed with Sport Ireland.

Grassroots Director Ger McDermott added: �This additional funding will, I am sure, allow our clubs and affiliates to recover quickly from the financial effects of COVID-19 and empower their plans for the future.

�The money will be allocated to projects that will make a big difference to growing Grassroots football in many of the areas that serve as the lifeblood of adult amateur and underage football across Ireland.

Don't think this money amounts to much when spread out over hundreds of grassroots clubs across the country - but at least its some sort of substance behind their pie in the sky plans!

**EalingGreen** · 08/02/2022, 5:31 PM

Originally Posted by sbgawa

Current two divisions i reckon but with a third division made up of Kerry , Mayo , Club Kildare. Carlow/Kilkenny, Limerick (see below), Cavan Monaghan, Shamrock Rovers ii + maybe 1 or two other reserve teams.
The FAI can by way of grant cover the expenses for the entry of a senior team by the areas with a current underage set up (above) and call it a continuation of the underage setup pipeline.
Fielding the team will be easy just play this years under 19s as a senior team next year instead of those kids going off to play junior football plus a few local lads who like the idea of playing LOI
Also lets not forget Irish Sea FC + any other randomers that i haven't considered here

(Limerick FC (as opposed to Treaty have teams in the underage system and have applied for a senior licence)

Assuming you're on the right track regarding the new teams, what happens at the end of the first season?

For when one (two?) of these new entities gets promoted to the First Division, how are they supposed to survive at that level, without having previously had at least a few seasons establishing and preparing themselves for senior football?

While a First Division team getting relegated to the Third tier would likely suffer a severe culture shock, never mind a financial one. Meaning that if they didn't get straight back up again, they could find themselves "levelling down", rather than "levelling up"?

**sbgawa** · 08/02/2022, 6:06 PM

I don't think the promotion relegation thing is a huge issue tbh. Looking at cobh or athlone for example who would potentially be relegated (based on last season) would their crowds / money be any lower if they were relegated?? If anything potentially being in a promotion scrap and title battle in division 2 might be a better draw than perennially being bottomish of division 1.
Clubs in the UK often go from premier league to league 1 and back up.
Also expenses for playing in division 2 for the smaller fully amateur teams wouldn't be appreciably different.. the 3rd tier could effectively start as a mostly under 20 league incorporating the 2022 under 19s fairly easily if the grants were there while also allowing clubs to sign older players.

**pineapple stu** · 08/02/2022, 6:22 PM

Cobh were in the A Championship before and while I think they struggled a bit in it, readjusting is the nature of promotion/relegation. They were only in it for a year or two I think before folding entirely for another bit and then being re-elected. I wouldn't be too worried about that aspect - the regional divisions will help. Ditto new teams being promoted - at least they can be relegated again, which was the big problem before.

**EatYerGreens** · 08/02/2022, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Assuming you're on the right track regarding the new teams, what happens at the end of the first season?

For when one (two?) of these new entities gets promoted to the First Division, how are they supposed to survive at that level, without having previously had at least a few seasons establishing and preparing themselves for senior football?

While a First Division team getting relegated to the Third tier would likely suffer a severe culture shock, never mind a financial one. Meaning that if they didn't get straight back up again, they could find themselves "levelling down", rather than "levelling up"?

This is exactly what happened when a second tier was introduced in the LOI - with Sligo, Drogheda, Shelbourne and Longford relegated into the new lower level at the end of the 1984/5 season, and then new club Bray Wanderers promoted as First Division champions at the end of 1985/6. Life went on though.

Same with the situation regarding the pyramid in Scotland being extended to include non-league (Highland/Lowland Leagues). It's just the way it is with starting off promotion and relegation. Unless you're proposing a period of having a closed shop to counter this ?

**EalingGreen** · 09/02/2022, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

This is exactly what happened when a second tier was introduced in the LOI - with Sligo, Drogheda, Shelbourne and Longford relegated into the new lower level at the end of the 1984/5 season, and then new club Bray Wanderers promoted as First Division champions at the end of 1985/6. Life went on though.

You may be right.

But surely the difference then was that with those 5 clubs you cite, every one of them had already been in existence for decades, meaning that they had support, personnel and structure to carry them while they adjusted to their new circumstances?

Which is a whole lot different from inventing a stack of entirely new clubs from various junior district leagues, esp in areas of the country which don't already have a particularly strong football culture (at least at a high level)?

Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Same with the situation regarding the pyramid in Scotland being extended to include non-league (Highland/Lowland Leagues). It's just the way it is with starting off promotion and relegation. Unless you're proposing a period of having a closed shop to counter this ?

Hardly analagous, since the Highland League had already existed since 1893(!), meaning it only had to be integrated into the existing structure.

And while the Lowland League was a new introduction, even there it was just arranging and integrating current clubs, many of them long-standing and drawn from the existing South and East of Scotland leagues.

Whereas with the LOI situation, you're devising a brand new league entirely, with brand new clubs.

Which is not to say it won't work, but Evolution is usually a lot less painful than Revolution.

**pineapple stu** · 09/02/2022, 11:04 AM

I think it's definitely fair to say that an existing club like, say, Tralee Dynamoes, would very likely be better placed to step up than a new entity called Mayo FC alright.

That said, at least putting them in a pyramid where relegation to a regionalised lower tier is an option to rebuild is better than the current setup.

**sbgawa** · 09/02/2022, 11:08 AM

The only logical outcome to having the clubs competing in the underage structures is to produce clubs in those areas that those kids can continue to play football for.
I think you could call this years 19s becoming next years senior team as evolution as it allows LOI underage players to continue directly into the senior section.
Admittedly as we have seen before with Monaghan, Kildare etc etc it is hard to keep these things going but maybe if expectations are set as the 3rd division being an extension of the underage section and expenses are kept down it doesnt need buckets of money to survive.
The cost of running effectively an under 23's team can be kept at the same level as an under 19 team.