QuoteAbsolutely. And Bonagee probably have a better setup than then, but I'd doubt if they'll make the step up.Originally Posted by joey B
They’re not even the best team in their own town,Bonagee are miles better than them….
Irish by birth ,Harps by the grace of god.
Absolutely. And Bonagee probably have a better setup than then, but I'd doubt if they'll make the step up.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
How does eg Scotland manage it?
For they've not just settled on their historic footballing history and infrastructure, but have looked to expand beyond their traditional confines eg by incorporating the Highland and Lowland leagues into their existing pyramid, with a further five tiers below them. While the travel/food costs etc, are just as onerous as in ROI.
While as a well-run club, I'd be very surprised if Loughgall allowed themselves to get into unsustainable debt - certainly not in order to stay in the Prem at all costs (literally).
"Destroyed"? "Amateur leagues"? What are you talking about?
Ports and Ards have been bouncing between the Championship and Prem for a few years now, with Distillery comfortable enough in the PIL (3rd tier). They may be modest enough outifts, but with proper management Ports should easily be able to survive, even thrive, in the top tier. While Ards finally look like securing a new ground after a quarter century of homelessness, which could set them up for a return to their former status. All three clubs are part-time professional.
As for Warrenpoint or Loughgall, so what if they are/were never going to be top tier beyond the short term? So long as they're not getting hammered every week in the top flight, their example gives hope to other small or struggling clubs. In which regard, Warrenpoint replaced Newry for a period, after the latter went bust. However, since Newry's fans retained control of the Showgrounds, and NI has a pyramid, those fans were able to resurrect a phoenix club, come back in the fifth tier, and work their way back to the top flight within a few years, where in a neat piece of symmetry, they replaced Warrenpoint.
Or would you say that the likes of Newry, modest though they are, don't deserve their place in the top flight either?
And that's a recommendation for the league, is it?
Have you ever heard of the concept of "Moral hazard" (And no, his brother wasn't on the bench for Real Madrid last night). If clubs know they can blow their budget in a dash for silverware, and then suffer no real penalty if/when it all goes wrong, then that's exactly what some (many?) of them are going to do.
Maybe you feel their rather greater attrition rate somehow makes the LOI more attractive than the IL, but as I see it, this set-up doesn't just "reward" financial mismanagement amongst the existing clubs, it further closes down any places for aspiring replacement clubs.
And I repeat, the third tier of the IL pyramid is p-t professional. While there is also a bit of money some of the lower tiers, even if it is hardly more than generous petrol expenses. Either way, it isn't "amateur".
They're not just as onerous! Republic of Ireland is far more spaced out between population centers. The majority of Scotlands 5.4m population is highly concentrated in the lowlands an 1hr to 1.5hr drive between Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee.
Scotland population distribution:
Scotland Population Distribution
ROI population distribution:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/com...eland_600x880/
Distillery are comfortable enough playing amateur football in part due to a pyramid? Fantastic but no thanks!
I think its disastrous that you've flooded your top 2 leagues with amateur sides with nearly no potential for growth - pushing out well established clubs with real fanbases.
Call a spade a spade, you're describing amatuer football. In that case the LSL is p-t professional too.
I think clubs always try to avoid going bankrupt as a rule of thumb - don't think a pyramid features too much in playing budget meetings!!
It's bit naive to give advice on a pyramid system that has arguably not had much benefit up north, especially in an environment so conducive too it: small distances, concentrated clubs in Antrim, where travel expensive are virtually nil. If ROI was only Leinster - it'd be very easy to implement.
Crowds are booming here without a pyramid.
Last edited by Buller; 18/05/2023 at 4:54 PM.
Wales is probably the most instructive template that the FAI could follow - the FAW administers the top three tiers, with the Cymru Premier the only centralised league, that devolves to the second-level Cymru North and South, and these in turn trickle down to four Ardal Leagues (NW, NE, SW, SE). These all have fixed infrastructural and licensing criteria, with leave to appeal by all unsuccessful clubs. Finally, there are fourth-level district leagues that correspond to our county level:
https://www.faw.cymru/en/news/mens-c...en/news/&pos=8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardal_Leagues
Like here, internal politicking delayed the process for some time, but the key difference is that all the leagues followed the same seasonal calendar.
Population distribution is one thing, club distribution is another. And the SFL has 42 members, as opposed to the LOI's 20, leading to the following travelling:
SPL - Dingwall to Kilmarnock: 200 miles;
Championship - Inverness to Ayr: 210 miles;
League One - Peterhead to Dumfries: 245 miles;
League Two - Elgin to Stranraer: 270 miles.
Even the regionalised 5th tier Highland and Lowland leagues require significant travel eg Wick to Brechin = 215 miles, or Castle Douglas to Cowdenbeath = 130 miles.
Noun: Amateur:
1. a person who engages in a pursuit, especially a sport, on an unpaid rather than a professional basis.
As for "flooding our top 2 leagues with amateur sides with nearly no potential for growth... ... [and] pushing out well established clubs", dear oh dear. I think you need to educate yourself on basic concepts like Promotion & Relegation. I know there's not a great deal of it to be seen in the LOI, but hey, even the Yanks get it:
https://worldsoccertalk.com/news/wha...ST-417286.html
P.S. Afaik, there are only two Amateur teams in the whole of the LOI (20 clubs) and the IL (24 clubs), Kerry FC and UCD. (Am open to correction on those two)
Er, there have been rather more Examinerships and Bankruptcies in the LOI than in the IL, despite the latter having more clubs, and (much) greater movement between the different levels*. As far as I can remember, the only one in recent years was Newry City, where a creditor pulled the plug on them and they went under. Fortunately, however, he couldn't get his hands on the Showgrounds, the fans took over, formed a phoenix club and started again in the fifth tier. And a few years later, they're back in the Premiership!
Another notable example was Bangor FC, a long-established Senior club. They realised they were having trouble competing financially, but instead of fighting the inevitable, they voluntarily withdrew from the top tier (after fulfilling their fixtures btw) and dropped down to Intermediate football until they got their finances sorted out. And this season they've romped to the PIL title (3rd tier, Intermediate), and are hoping to go all the way to the Premiership in a redeveloped stadium.
Neither would have been possible had we not had a pyramid, instead two long-established Senior clubs would have disappeared.
As for "not much benefit up North etc", that's utter rot! Ask anyone in NI football and they'll all agree that the pyramid has been beneficial, not least in expanding Senior football to new areas outwith it's Belfast/Co.Antrim heartland, from Institute (Derry) to Warrenpoint, Castlederg to Loughgall and Ballinamallard to Lisburn etc.
* - It's that pyramid thing again
How much bigger would they be if you managed to expand outside the same bare handful of traditional centres?
To take a comparison, in the top flight in NI, crowds have all but doubled in the last decade. And from 2021/22 to the season just ended, crowds are up by another 10%. Specifically, the top 10 teams are averaging 1,776. Not much compared with the crowds currently watching the LOI, you might say, until you consider this. The population of the ROI is 2.5 times that of NI, meaning that the same turnout down South would generate average PD crowds of 4,440 - you're still somewhat short*. None of which is to disparage LOI crowds and growth etc, I'm happy to acknowledge that they're highly impressive.
But I have no doubt whatever that the IL's crowds would be a lot lower had we not introduced the pyramid and were instead continuously watching the same old teams, in the same old locations, season after season after season.
* - And that's with the benefit of Derry City's crowds, which give a great boost from across the border to the LOI totals.
Last edited by EalingGreen; 18/05/2023 at 10:42 PM.
Well said, incl the bit about the seasonal calendar.
UCD are semi-pro, AFAIK, but Treaty are amateur, along with Kerry (and even Kerry ultimately plan to go part-time in future seasons when they get a better understanding of the returns or otherwise from this term).
I still don't get the concern here to be honest.
Nobody's pushed out well-established clubs except themselves by being badly-run. Portadown seem to be permanently in crisis for example. Ards sold their ground almost 30 years ago and have been homeless ever since. There's nothing stopping Distillery getting out of the division they're in (third tier), but they haven't come close to managing it in seven years.
I don't understand why you're so keen to protect such badly-run clubs?
You say "Crowds are booming here without a pyramid" but the point is that we've been running out of clubs for a while now, to the extent that we've twice had to rely on Rovers to field a second team just to make up the numbers in the First Division. Literally every club bar Bray (and Kerry) to have joined the First Division since it started has gone bust. Some have disappeared altogether, others have used the opportunity to wipe off a huge amount of debt, knowing there's effectively no punishment. That's a ridiculous state of affairs.
I'm not sure why Distillery have cropped up in this coversation - maybe Ealing Green will correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like they've been irrelevant since they left Belfast.
They parachuted into a greyhound stadium on the outskirts of Lisburn and it's been a bit of a disaster. It seems there's a new club in Lisburn these days - Ballymacash Rangers - who could be in the Championship in a couple of season.
I know there were certain reasons for it but a couple of years ago I think Institute were playing in a public park in the Championship before they moved to Brandywell.
The question is probably what do we want to achieve by introducing a third tier and/or pyramid structure. It's far from ideal having basket case clubs in the league with no threat of relegation but at the same time it has given Kerry the opportunity of establishing themselves in the league without the pressure of needing to get points on the board. If they had to immediately bring in experienced League of Ireland journeymen from Cork/Limerick/Galway/Dublin I have no doubt the crowds would have fallen away by now.
For me, what the league needs, is to have a wider appeal around the country, so that's why I'd be in favour of the likes of CK United, Monaghan, Mayo who have established roots with academies in place - the introduction of academies I think is one of the reasons in the surge in attendances at matches - there are so many people with a connection through a friend/relative/neighbour being a player at some level - so a connection is then made to the first team.
Tipperary is another obvious area but would a club like St Michael's be sustainable at LoI level? Would anyone outside Tipp Town go to support them? Does that restrict the potential of the club that they've always been rivals with Clonmel Town for example?
Ultimately, as someone has mentioned, at the moment it would be financial suicide for St Michael's to join the LoI so until that changes we're just going to be left with the status quo and maybe a few jumped up academies and a couple more University sides to emulate UCD, though I would prefer if existing clubs established those links with universities as UCD have shown there isn't really much in the way of support for those teams, which I think is kind of important for the image of the league.
I phoned the speaking clock to hear a voice speak, it said - "At the tone you will be very much alone"
I think though the Kerry situation should be what we're trying to avoid - a club coming in and running the risk of losing all early momentum and goodwill with a series of crap results. It's what happened Cabo (who also didn't remotely have the facilities in place, apart from a big academy, and I agree with you that I think it's a definite help) and others before. Too soon they end up playing in front of 300-400 people and it's a real struggle to build from there.
So while I agree with your "What do we want to achieve" goal, I don't think the current setup is the way of doing it.
I also think with a pyramid, you take away the question of working out which towns can support a league team. The structure will naturally provide the answer. And it might be somewhere nobody considered before.
Yep, Ports have been badly run for some time - buthat hardly makes them unique in the world of football, whether in Ireland or elsewhere. While the essentials are still there (stadium, support, location, history) until such times as they should get it right.
Ards buggered up, no doubt, but they finally look like returning to the town, up the road from their old ground:
https://planetradio.co.uk/cool-fm/lo...tadia-funding/
While they would never have survived this long without being able to groundshare with neighbours Bangor, who themselves would never have survived without the pyramid:
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/f...ht-bid-3262754
As for Distillery, I don't think it's overstating it to say they were a (direct) victim of The Troubles. And if for various reasons their future in Lisburn is likely to be as an Intermediate club, that's partly because they're being overtaken by their Lisburn neighbours, Ballymacash Rangers.
The Cash are a very progressive club who have developed terrific facilities from scratch in just a few years. For their extensive community involvement, they're similar to eg Mullingar Athletic, the only difference being that having gone from Junior football to Intermediate football, they are determined to go all the way and give Lisburn its own home-grown Senior club for the first time:
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/f...isburn-2925442
Once again, none of this would have been possible without there being a pyramid, indeed such clubs wouldn't even have tried.
I think it was 'Buller' who brought them into the conversation(?), but anyhow, Distillery are no more "irrelevant" than a club like Monaghan Utd or Cabinteeley, except that if ever they have a revival in fortune, they still have a clear route back to Senior status.
While for information, for the last five seasons in the top tier (to 2012/13), they still managed crowds of c.400 at Ballyskeagh, and that at a time when the divisional average was not much more than 800, itself half the figure today (c.1,600).
Institute's ground at Drumahoe was very tidy - 3k capacity with half of those seated - I'd say better than many in the LOI FD, maybe even one or two in the PD? The ground was then completely flooded out after the 2017/18 season started, so they moved into a nearby municipal ground as an emergency measure. At the end of that season they moved to the Brandywell, while they tried to sort out Drumahoe.
Unfortunately they couldn't get Planning Permission from the Council to install flood barriers, since that would just have transferred the problem further downstream to a more populated area. And even if they could, the flood brought in Japanese knotweed, meaning they could never get insurance.
However they've now got the go-ahead to build a ground as the centrepiece of a new sports hub in the Waterside:
https://www.derryjournal.com/sport/f...erside-4019517
In which context Stute are another interesting case. For the first 90-odd years of their existence they were a Junior team, albeit one of the more prominent ones. Then when DCFC moved to the LOI, they saw an opportunity to achieve first Intermediate status, then Senior. Some of this predated the present IL pyramid, but there's no doubt it has been assisted greatly on its way by the new structure.
And seeing as they were attracting 4-500 a decade ago, when crowds generally were v.low, there's no reason why, in the new stadium and with good management, they couldn't aspire to crowds approaching four figures if they got to the IL Prem, which should be enough to sustain p-t professional football. Which imo wouldn't be too shabby, considering they're very much the second team in a city of fewer than 100k.
Expansion?
Comparing (Greater) Dublin with Belfast, there's no good reason why the former couldn't sustain another Senior club or two at the level of some of the existing ones. While Cork is much bigger than Derry for instance, yet unlike Derry, I'm not sure it's ever had more than one Senior club?
Unless footballing people in ROI are happy to carry on with the same 18 or 20 Senior clubs, with only a yawning chasm below?
It's only since Cork City was founded that it's only had one club in the League - for many decades it was Cork Celtic and Cork Hibs, the latter were succeeded by Cork Alberts briefly, and the former were previously Evergreen United. Even that potted narrative doesn't tell half the story!
Writing centered around 'senior' status is really just a meaingless discussion of language. 'Senior' could be gifted through promotion of a club with an incidentally strong team, though fundamentally otherwise unchanged as club, into a higher division for a passing period, or even thorough the fairly arbitrary rebranding of an intermediate division as a senior division. Neither changes the reality of the club itself, it isn't a relevant yardstick for progression, nor even a coherent grading system. It is solely a label. Linguistics semantics is great and all that but be aware of what you're doing.
I thought the posts about Letterkenny Rovers etc. however were interesting. It must be difficult for a club who have in part defined themselves by their (relatively) elevated platform competing at a level of competition that they would view as above that of the majority of surrounding clubs to be faced with the prospect of joining the Donegal League. Could attempting to dominate the Donegal League really compensate for a club like that? What if their current peers (at least Bonagee) join and as a result LK fail to compete? There's even the potential reduction in prestige for their 'second' team to consider. You can see how the third tier would appeal really.
Sorry, but that's nonsense.
In order to progress to Senior status, clubs need to acquire a Licence. This covers minimum standards of stadia, finance, facilities, qualified staffing, safety etc. These standards increase as you progress up the ladder. And it's not just an end-of-year exercise, Licensing requirements are monitored throughout the season, as outlined here:
https://www.irishfa.com/irish-footba...club-licensing
All of which is a hot topic in the IL just now. In the season just ended, Warrenpoint finished 2nd in the Championship (2nd tier), which would normally qualify them for a Promotion/Relegation play-off against the team finishing second bottom of the Prem, Dungannon Swifts. However, they've hit a major problem.
For in order to renew their Licences for next season, clubs have to have all their final Licencing documentation in with the IFA Licensing Committee by 31st March. The Committee has until 15th April to review them, then issue the new Licences. However, when the looked at Point's details, they found that there was an outstanding bill owed to HMRC (£14k?). And even though Point paid it in full by 14th April, the Licence was refused, since 31 March is a strict cut-off.
Point appealed (twice), but have been turned down both times, despite being represented by Barristers etc. They're now looking to Arbitration, but if that doesn't work, they won't be allowed to play in either the Prem or the Championship next season. In fact, it's not altogether clear yet whether they'll be allowed to play in the Premier Intermediate League (3rd tier) - they may have to go down to whichever 4th tier league will have them.
And it's because the IFA is pretty tight on this sort of thing that we haven't seen clubs getting into financial difficulty, or even going bust entirely, as (ahem) certain other leagues have had to endure.
Nor is the granting of Licences all a "negative", since Licensing requirements are constantly being upgraded, which should be seen as a "positive" imo. Therefore before Loughgall will be permitted to play home Premiership games at Lakeview next season, they have to make improvements. They're rushing to get these done in time for next season, but if not complete by the start, they've had to nominate Glenavon's ground until Lakeview is ready. This is despite the fact that it was deemed adequate when the club were in the top tier a few years back.
Anyhow, with a capacity of 3k and a grass pitch, I'd guess it's better than one or two grounds in the LOI:
While they have ambitious plans to improve the ground further, funding permitted:
https://www.armaghi.com/news/loughga...toilets/168239
But yeah, it's probably just semantics...
Last edited by EalingGreen; 20/05/2023 at 4:08 PM.
Thank you for the 450 word explanation of what licencing is, but your lengthy post didn't address or show any understanding of the post you were replying to. Senior is a meaningless term to apply across leagues. It does not have a fixed meaning and is not a standardised internationally or, indeed through time.
A very good location in a fast growing town of 20,000 people sounds like a fairly decent starting point tbh. The stadium can always be improved. Is there space at the site to do that ?
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