Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[pineapple stu]

Its a fixation because its a really clear case study that splitting a small pie isn't a great idea and surely won't grow it.

But it's also a really clear case study that a proper pyramid - which is generally what it's used to argue against - would actually have mitigated against.

Well yes, the initial plan was doubtless to apply for the third tier, but with the First Division vacancy arising from the Bray/Cabinteely merger, and three seasons at U19 level, they can hardly be blamed for deciding to step up.

For the record, I don't think you can blame Kerry at all for wanting to step up in the circumstances. I think the fault here lies more with the daft system we have for electing senior clubs, one which is pretty much unique throughout Europe. I want to see Kerry do well (having lived there a few years), but I think the way ye've come into the league is a hindrance to that unfortunately.

[EalingGreen]

To grow crowds and expand reach, which wouldn't happen in a million years in a small town with splitting a small pie.

Surely the point is that if a town like Galway isn't capable of supporting two, never mind three, Senior clubs, then it should not be permitted to? That is, the weakest one or two should be replaced.

The real problem lying not with Galway itself, as in the fact that the FAI doesn't have any suitable replacements lined up, essentially because they lack any mechanism to produce more Senior-level clubs. Which for a wealthy country with a 5 million population which has long been very interested in football etc should ordinarily be puzzling.

Except that to this outsider, it's not puzzling at all. That is, the FAI/LOI seem somehow incapable of adopting, or unwilling to adopt, the method that just about every other comparable country does when seeking to expand its domestic club game i.e. a pyramid system.

In fact I'd guess it's worse again in that it's probably both. That is, if you're the FAI it's much too difficult and long term, also a distraction from their "real" business (international football), while if you're an existing Senior club you probably don't want the added competition.

Meaning that if ambitious Junior/Intermediate clubs aren't getting any lead or encouragement from the FAI and LOI etc, then they will look to grow in other ways. Which brings us back eg to Mullingar Athletic, who look to have settled on the Community route for growth, rather than the Senior route.

Which when you think about it, is worse again, since there is no good reason why a competitive Senior club cannot also have a thriving Community presence, as at least some existing Senior clubs presumably already have.

Now what was someone saying about an AIL?

[sbgawa]

IMO it isnt helped that there are so many problems to solve in football in Ireland that the CEO lives in England.
He was supposed to move over then covid happened and his relocation money is being spent on ocasional flights and hotels instead , meanwhile Zoom is good enough supposedly.
We need root and branch reform meaning loads of small leagues folded into each other , blazers out players in.
Junior football played on same schedule as LOI but with a month off in summer instead of two weeks...
Making that happen will need numerous meetings and a strong arm operating on the ground and traveling around Ireland.......
What we have now wont deliver, not the guys fault himself its the FAI board who allowed this happen

[JC_GUFC]

I don't think it's like the FAI CEO is never here! He was at Rovers v Pat's on Monday and is a regular at LoI games. With so much remote working I really don't see where he's living as much of an issue. Were he living in Westmeath, for example, would that be any different to him living in England if he was at home anyway?

There's been a bit of talk of the Galway/Mervue/Salthill situation developing I see...

Just from my understanding of what went on there - I genuinely think Mervue were interested in joining the League of Ireland, maybe a bit like Cabinteely they saw it was a way of getting their underage teams into the LoI academy set up, though they were still a few years away from being launched. Salthill Devon had no real interest in joining LoI, as far as I can tell, but Mervue were their biggest rivals in Galway in terms of underage teams, so whatever Mervue did Salthill had to copy.

At the time Galway United had a fairly over ambitious CEO, who had no clue about League of Ireland and left the club on very unsteady footing. At the end of 2011 Galway United were relegated after only managing 6 points all season in the Premier Division and in massive debt. As far as I'm aware, had the fans taken over the running of the club in Division 1 we'd have been liable for the debt, so it was chosen not to take over the running of the club for the 2012 season and nobody put in an application (whether the club would even have been granted a license is another question).

During their time in League of Ireland, Mervue continued to play their matches in Fahy's Field , however for the 2012 season Salthill Devon rebranded as 'SD Galway', changed their colours to maroon and moved their games from Drom to Terryland Park - a clear attempt to take over the Galway United place in the league.

This failed absolutely miserably, one "derby" match had fewer than 90 paying fans and by the end of the season they'd returned to play out of Drom again.

The worry I have with a pyramid system, and in general I do support it, is that we've had the likes Athlone, Drogheda, Limerick/Treaty, Cobh, Galway United, Wexford, Waterford, Finn Harps etc. all being absolutely useless at some stage over the last 10/15 years. A pyramid system is likely to see clubs such as St Mochta's, Crumlin and Rockmount be the best and the ones eligible for promotion, so there would be the danger of the league becoming even more Dublin-centric.

Eventually through some sort of deal struck Galway United returned but how else was the club supposed to come back?

Would it help Treaty United if Fairview Rangers got promoted to League of Ireland level or would it push them the way of so many other Limerick clubs? Would Fairview Rangers attract any sort of support in Limerick?

EalingGreen may not like it but in an AIL there isn't a requirement for any club to magic a fanbase out of thin air - these clubs already exist!

[pineapple stu]

The worry I have with a pyramid system, and in general I do support it, is that we've had the likes Athlone, Drogheda, Limerick/Treaty, Cobh, Galway United, Wexford, Waterford, Finn Harps etc. all being absolutely useless at some stage over the last 10/15 years. A pyramid system is likely to see clubs such as St Mochta's, Crumlin and Rockmount be the best and the ones eligible for promotion, so there would be the danger of the league becoming even more Dublin-centric.

Would those teams be able to support an LoI side? Do they have the facilities required (nominally at least...) by licensing? Cost and facilities are a big step up from LSL as far as I'm aware, and I don't know if any of them have any real sort of supporter base?

I'd rather a strong Dublin team in the First Division than a useless country side though, and there's been plenty of those down the years.

There's a feature in this month's When Saturday Comes on East Stirling - the first side relegated out of the Scottish Leagues after more than 100 years in the leagues. It's something the Scottish league clubs had been trying to block, and indeed still are trying to block, which is why there's no automatic promotion/relegation from Highland/Lowland league to the fourth tier. But rather than being downbeat, the article starts "Having been the first club to be relegated from Scottish League Two, East Stirlingshire are still enjoying life in the Lowland league", and a director talks about using the opportunity to rebuild and come back stronger. If a crap Athlone (say) were relegated and replaced by another Dublin team, is it really an issue? Even if it allows Athlone regroup, and pushes the Dublin team (and indeed, teams from outside Dublin) to push themselves to improve?

[outspoken]

IMO it isnt helped that there are so many problems to solve in football in Ireland that the CEO lives in England.
He was supposed to move over then covid happened and his relocation money is being spent on ocasional flights and hotels instead , meanwhile Zoom is good enough supposedly.
We need root and branch reform meaning loads of small leagues folded into each other , blazers out players in.
Junior football played on same schedule as LOI but with a month off in summer instead of two weeks...
Making that happen will need numerous meetings and a strong arm operating on the ground and traveling around Ireland.......
What we have now wont deliver, not the guys fault himself its the FAI board who allowed this happen

It's not being talked about enough either, Roy Barrett called it a non issue when pressed about it at the start and everyone seems to have just said ah thats grand so. Still no sponsor, promised 3rd tier miles away, no tv deal, no new league sponsor, what are they actually doing monday to Friday in the FAI?

[JC_GUFC]

Would those teams be able to support an LoI side? Do they have the facilities required (nominally at least...) by licensing? Cost and facilities are a big step up from LSL as far as I'm aware, and I don't know if any of them have any real sort of supporter base?

But that's kind of my point - no, I wouldn't think so - but they're the best non-league teams at the moment so would be the first in line for promotion in a pyramid system, which is kind of why the Kerry FC approach does also make a bit of sense, even if on the pitch they're not as competitive as others would be.

I'd rather a strong Dublin team in the First Division than a useless country side though, and there's been plenty of those down the years.

There's a feature in this month's When Saturday Comes on East Stirling - the first side relegated out of the Scottish Leagues after more than 100 years in the leagues. It's something the Scottish league clubs had been trying to block, and indeed still are trying to block, which is why there's no automatic promotion/relegation from Highland/Lowland league to the fourth tier. But rather than being downbeat, the article starts "Having been the first club to be relegated from Scottish League Two, East Stirlingshire are still enjoying life in the Lowland league", and a director talks about using the opportunity to rebuild and come back stronger. If a crap Athlone (say) were relegated and replaced by another Dublin team, is it really an issue? Even if it allows Athlone regroup, and pushes the Dublin team (and indeed, teams from outside Dublin) to push themselves to improve?

Well it does become an issue if you end up losing more and more teams. What if Athlone Town don't get organised at all? Probably the biggest issue for the league as a national league is swathes of the country with no team to support.

[JC_GUFC]

It's not being talked about enough either, Roy Barrett called it a non issue when pressed about it at the start and everyone seems to have just said ah thats grand so. Still no sponsor, promised 3rd tier miles away, no tv deal, no new league sponsor, what are they actually doing monday to Friday in the FAI?

Why do you think it's an issue? How many people actually work in the FAI offices on daily basis?

With all those questions you don't seem to realise that the FAI is massively in debt and is also looked upon very negatively at the moment because of the former goings-on. Things are changing but the FAI did turn down one sponsorship offer because it was from a bookmaker. I guess there's no-one meeting what they value the sponsorship package at so maybe you think they should take a below-par offer just so they can have something.

When was there ever a TV deal? You've heard RTE's head of sport before saying there's no interest - at least now Virgin Media seem to be interested in showing some games so now there is some value and it can be revisited next year.

International matches are now pretty much all being sold out - support for the league is at its highest in about 60 years - so there's a lot going right. It would be great if all the issues you've raised could be fixed overnight but they simply can't.

[EatYerGreens]

Yep, but my point is that given they're so uncompetitive, crowds will surely dwindle like at Cabo.

Again showing the folly of just making up a club and dumping them into the First Division. Far better for a side to be promoted into it; they should be far more likely to be competitive and can build on their momentum

This presumes that an established club joining the LOI will either be relatively successful fairly quickly, or somehow defy the normal rules of sport and retain a viable level of support if and when they're doing badly. Neither of those worked for established clubs like St James's Gate, St Francis, Mervue or Salthill. And Cabinteely WERE an estabished club, but it didn't work for them either. Clubs that perform badly will suffer poor support levels. Doubly so when they haven't had the chance to develop inter-generational support as a senior club yet.

[pineapple stu]

But that's kind of my point - no, I wouldn't think so - but they're the best non-league teams at the moment so would be the first in line for promotion in a pyramid system, which is kind of why the Kerry FC approach does also make a bit of sense, even if on the pitch they're not as competitive as others would be.

Yeah, the non-league side of things does seem woefully underdeveloped, which really doesn't help. But if they don't have, say, a proper ground to play in with minimum capacity, etc, then they're not first in line. (I presume - I don't know what their grounds are like but I'm presuming they're fence-around-the-pitch sort of stuff) Clubs wanting promotion would have to put the effort in off the pitch and earn promotion on the pitch. That's a good mix to encourage.

Well it does become an issue if you end up losing more and more teams. What if Athlone Town don't get organised at all? Probably the biggest issue for the league as a national league is swathes of the country with no team to support.

True - but the general picture seems to be that a proper pyramid helps teams re-organise better than the current position we have now. Monaghan, Kildare, Kilkenny, etc, have all just gone. They're nowhere, because they had nowhere to go to. Anything's better than that - and that's why I quoted the East Stirling director talking about his club's experience of being relegated to non-league.

[EatYerGreens]

Are you going to grow crowds and expand reach with a Kerry side as bad as they currently are? Would they not have been better proving themselves first, building momentum, improving facilities, having a bit of success, etc?

As a general plan, I think that's far more likely to succeed than the way things have currently happened.

I think you're fixating on Kerry here. The reality is that the only way for a club to prove that it can hack it at a particular level is for it to be at that particular level. How often do we see LOI clubs do well in the First Division one season, and then bomb when in the PD the next ? It's fairly common (Bray made a habit of yo-yoing up and down). So it clearly doesn't follow that just because you can do well at a lower level means that you will automatically do well at the level above. UCD have bene awful so far in the PD, but could well wi the FD next year and be back again wthin 12mths. All that would tell us is that the club is too good for the second tier and not good enough for the first.

The pyramid argument makes sense withoiut having to grasp at straws like this. I also think it's fairly disingenuous to be writing off Kerry FC less than 3 months into their senior existence.

[EatYerGreens]

For the record, I don't think you can blame Kerry at all for wanting to step up in the circumstances. I think the fault here lies more with the daft system we have for electing senior clubs, one which is pretty much unique throughout Europe. I want to see Kerry do well (having lived there a few years), but I think the way ye've come into the league is a hindrance to that unfortunately.

This is where the ideal comes up aganst the reality.

It's all very well to lambast the FAI for not having a pyramid. How do you propose they achieve that in the face of misaligned seasons, clubs and officials who appear to have little or no interest in changing that, and an organisational structure in which the LOI is a minority voice ? If I recall correctly, when I suggested that the FAI play hard ball on ths yourself and EaligGreen refused to accept that. So how will the theory of a pyramid be turned into the reality of one, given the inherent structural blockages against it ?

[EatYerGreens]

Surely the point is that if a town like Galway isn't capable of supporting two, never mind three, Senior clubs, then it should not be permitted to? That is, the weakest one or two should be replaced.

The real problem lying not with Galway itself, as in the fact that the FAI doesn't have any suitable replacements lined up, essentially because they lack any mechanism to produce more Senior-level clubs. Which for a wealthy country with a 5 million population which has long been very interested in football etc should ordinarily be puzzling.

We've been through this before. It's only puzzling to people who don't understand Irish football. The reality is that joining the LOI is a) Financial suicide, given how low the participation and prize money is and how high the costs of travel, fnes, putting together a competitive team to be viable etc are, and b) A huge distraction from the primary job of junior and intermediate clubs - which is to provide junior and intermediate football. What's puzzling is that ANY club would weigh up the current costs and benefits of joining the LOI and think it's a good idea. Which unsurprisingly so very few actually do.

Except that to this outsider, it's not puzzling at all. That is, the FAI/LOI seem somehow incapable of adopting, or unwilling to adopt, the method that just about every other comparable country does when seeking to expand its domestic club game i.e. a pyramid system.

The reason clubs don't want to join the LOI currently is that it's too costly, risky and distracting for them. So how will introducing a pyramid magically resolve those issues ? Bar providing a clearer route to drop down again if it doesn't work out (though that would be only one of a number of concerns they face), it won;t. The way to get more clubs interested in stepping up to the LOI will be to ensure the prize money is such that it becomes more attractive, viable and less costly to take the step up. That could happen either with or without a pyramid. If you introduce a pyramid WITHOUT addressing the various reaosns why clubs currently don't want to join the LOI, you'll just have clubs declining promotion and weaker teams taking their place or relegated sides staying up - all of which would make a mockery of the pyramid system.

Meaning that if ambitious Junior/Intermediate clubs aren't getting any lead or encouragement from the FAI and LOI etc, then they will look to grow in other ways. Which brings us back eg to Mullingar Athletic, who look to have settled on the Community route for growth, rather than the Senior route.

This correctly identifies a problem, but assigns the wrong reason for it. As explained above.

Now what was someone saying about an AIL?

Completely irrelevant to the issue of prize and participation money in the LOI.

[EatYerGreens]

IMO it isnt helped that there are so many problems to solve in football in Ireland that the CEO lives in England.
He was supposed to move over then covid happened and his relocation money is being spent on ocasional flights and hotels instead , meanwhile Zoom is good enough supposedly.
We need root and branch reform meaning loads of small leagues folded into each other , blazers out players in.
Junior football played on same schedule as LOI but with a month off in summer instead of two weeks...
Making that happen will need numerous meetings and a strong arm operating on the ground and traveling around Ireland.......
What we have now wont deliver, not the guys fault himself its the FAI board who allowed this happen

This is what is needed. The notion that a pyramid system can be somehow installed at the moment and will solve all Irish football's problems is utter fantasy.

[EatYerGreens]

Would those teams be able to support an LoI side? Do they have the facilities required (nominally at least...) by licensing? Cost and facilities are a big step up from LSL as far as I'm aware, and I don't know if any of them have any real sort of supporter base?

I'd rather a strong Dublin team in the First Division than a useless country side though, and there's been plenty of those down the years.

There's a feature in this month's When Saturday Comes on East Stirling - the first side relegated out of the Scottish Leagues after more than 100 years in the leagues. It's something the Scottish league clubs had been trying to block, and indeed still are trying to block, which is why there's no automatic promotion/relegation from Highland/Lowland league to the fourth tier. But rather than being downbeat, the article starts "Having been the first club to be relegated from Scottish League Two, East Stirlingshire are still enjoying life in the Lowland league", and a director talks about using the opportunity to rebuild and come back stronger. If a crap Athlone (say) were relegated and replaced by another Dublin team, is it really an issue? Even if it allows Athlone regroup, and pushes the Dublin team (and indeed, teams from outside Dublin) to push themselves to improve?

But this assumes that a crap Athlone would sort themseves out and come back again stronger. What if they didn't ? Surely a club in trouble having their troubles multipled following the shock of relegation (with all the reduction in attendances, sponsorship, player appeal etc that would entail) would be more likely to go bad than turn out well.

I used to love the fact that Berwick Rangers were an English club playing in the Scottish League. But they got relegated to the Lowland League in 2019, and show little sign of making a return anytime soon. For every East Stirling (who are still not back at a higher level btw) there is at least one Berwck. Not all phoenixes rise from the ashes. The LOI's oldest club - Athlone - going out of the senior game and being replaced by yet another small Dublin club would be a tragedy IMO.

I support a pyramid structure in football btw but I think there is a naivety and 'rose-tinted-glasses' to how you view it in the context of Irish football.

[legendz]

Yep, but my point is that given they're so uncompetitive, crowds will surely dwindle like at Cabo.

After their first win?
Just because you are struggling with the concept of a young team, not everyone will have that difficulty.
Kerry have not joined the league like they have invented football. Kerry have entered the league with a respect for the league and an acknowledgement it is going to be difficult. When Kerry joined the youth leagues, it was also a difficult step up.

Again showing the folly of just making up a club and dumping them into the First Division. Far better for a side to be promoted into it; they should be far more likely to be competitive and can build on their momentum

Kerry aren't exactly a made up club. Kerry built up through the youth leagues. Kerry FC is a natural evolution. Quite common in the history of clubs to have an evolution. Joining the third tier would have been the natural progression.
Agreed about clubs being promoted to the First Division. It is the way forward. If Kildare and Carlow Kilkenny join a third tier, it should afford them the opportunity to build on and off the park, and earn a First Division licence.
Mounthawk Park is very fortunate to be allowed host First Division games. Ideally as part of the licencing process, Kildare and Carlow Kilkenny can achieve First Division licences with grounds that are ready for the step up.

[sadloserkid]

If Athlone (or Treaty or anybody else) get relegated to a third tier and can't reorganise themselves sufficiently to rebound then, honestly, fuk them. Clubs being allowed to meander along aimlessly for years doesn't do the league any favours.

[outspoken]

Why do you think it's an issue? How many people actually work in the FAI offices on daily basis?

With all those questions you don't seem to realise that the FAI is massively in debt and is also looked upon very negatively at the moment because of the former goings-on. Things are changing but the FAI did turn down one sponsorship offer because it was from a bookmaker. I guess there's no-one meeting what they value the sponsorship package at so maybe you think they should take a below-par offer just so they can have something.

When was there ever a TV deal? You've heard RTE's head of sport before saying there's no interest - at least now Virgin Media seem to be interested in showing some games so now there is some value and it can be revisited next year.

International matches are now pretty much all being sold out - support for the league is at its highest in about 60 years - so there's a lot going right. It would be great if all the issues you've raised could be fixed overnight but they simply can't.

The FAI have nothing to do with the crowds, you know that as well as I do. The FAI needed a huge change in his things are done, a lad calling in via zoom or flying in every so often isn't going to achieve that. Staff morale reportedly still very poor within the FAI

[EalingGreen]

The reality is that joining the LOI is a) Financial suicide, given how low the participation and prize money is and how high the costs of travel, fnes, putting together a competitive team to be viable etc

All of those apply eg in the IL bar the travelling costs, which is outweighed by the 20% VAT levied on gate money.
Meanwhile, NI has a population of 2m versus ROI's 5m, and a poorer one at that, plus a political situation whereby certain football fans would never support certain sides even if they lived two doors up from the stadium etc.
Yet still the IL manages to sustain 24 Senior teams in the top two tiers (and that's even without DCFC from our second city), another 12 in the Premier Intermediate League, plus another 100+ Intermediate clubs in four tiers of eight divisions, all with regular Promotion & Relegation in between:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northe..._league_system

While all the time we experience far fewer clubs going into Examinership/Administration with bad debts to reappear next season in a different guise, or alternatively to disappear altogether. While at the same time we are managing to expand the geographical spread of Intermediate and Senior clubs throughout NI by degrees.

[The reality is that joining the LOI is] b) A huge distraction from the primary job of junior and intermediate clubs - which is to provide junior and intermediate football.

"The primary job"?

Do you not want your club to be the best it can? That is, by producing, improving and signing the best players it can? Who get to train in the best possible facilities, and play in a stadium which has the best possible facilities to attract the maximum fan support? While the club optimises its corporate/sponsorship/commercial/media revenues etc behind the scenes? All of which is designed to see the team reaching the highest possible level?

Which need not be contradicted by the likes of Mullingar Athletic maximising their community set-up - on the contrary, having a solid base in your local community can compliment all the other stuff.

The reason clubs don't want to join the LOI currently is that it's too costly, risky and distracting for them. So how will introducing a pyramid magically resolve those issues ?

There's nothing "magical" about a pyramid, nor is it ever going to be quick to construct either - quite the contrary.

But it's precisely because there's no magic required that just about every other UEFA country, including all the comparable ones, are managing to construct them.

For it doesn't even take any great vision, since the model is already there, nor need it take a huge amount of money, considering how little the FA's eg in Wales, Iceland, Estonia, NI or Albania have to devote to it.

Rather it takes determination, plannning, patience and time. Oh and the basic appreciation that you build a pyramid from the bottom up, not from the top down.

Bar providing a clearer route to drop down again if it doesn't work out (though that would be only one of a number of concerns they face), it won;t.

The safety net is not the only attrbute of a pyramid, but it is still a vital one, when added to all the others.

The way to get more clubs interested in stepping up to the LOI will be to ensure the prize money is such that it becomes more attractive, viable and less costly to take the step up... ... Completely irrelevant to the issue of prize and participation money in the LOI.

You appear to cling to the low prize/participation money in the LOI as being the major disincentive preventing otherwise aspiring clubs from moving up.

How much prize money do you imagine there is in the NI or Welsh leagues, for instance?

[EatYerGreens]

@EalingGreen - The fundamental difference between football north and south is that there is feck all money in the Irish League. That is why someone like Loughall in a small village can get into the top tier. If they were an LOI First Division club they'd stand zero chance of promotion. It's easy to 'sustain' loads of clubs when it costs very little money to do so (aided in that, of course, by very little travel being involved). There is no financial barrier to entry to stepping up in the IL compared to what there is in the LOI - where the clubs who finish bottom of the First Division will actually lose money over all just form the FAI alone. Just look at the attendances in the LOI First Division this year - with Galway having a number of 4,000+ gates this year. Half the teams in the LOI FD have attendnaces which would be considered bloody good in the Irish League top tier., never mind second Whilst the IL second tier - a direct comparator league for the LOI FD - is largely played in small stadiums in front of basically tumbleweed.

So that's the fundamental difference. It is easy to keep clubs going in a league where the financial stakes are increadibly low. Give it another 5-10 yrs when European money starts to really distort things in the IL and you get more sugar daddy owners like at Larne and Glentoran, and then you'll see the financial stakes rising and life becoming harder for everyone else. Until then, the financial jeopardy of being part of the LOI is nothing like the low-cost Irish League second tier. Likewise in Welsh football, where attendnaces and money are even more sparse than across the IL pyramid. You like to kid yourself that the IL is well run and 'stable'. In reality it's just cheap to run. And if clubs aren't spendng much, because they don't need to to remain competitive, then they're not going to get into financial trouble. It's like comparing the stakes in a game of snap to those on a roulette table.