Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[sbgawa]

The FAI need to force all leagues into a February to November year.
That at least means that the creation of a Pyramid is one step closer.
I help out in the DDSL and they have just finished until Feb anyway so this whole debate is about the length of break in the Summer.
Force Summer Season.
Force amalgamation of the Numerous leagues and to hell with the blazers trying to protect their Fiefdoms.
Put the Pyramid in place and then allow people to choose if they want to go up or not.
Eventualy the forward thinking clubs will come forward but the FAI wont make this Omelette without Smashing a few eggs

[EatYerGreens]

The FAI need to force all leagues into a February to November year.
That at least means that the creation of a Pyramid is one step closer.
I help out in the DDSL and they have just finished until Feb anyway so this whole debate is about the length of break in the Summer.
Force Summer Season.
Force amalgamation of the Numerous leagues and to hell with the blazers trying to protect their Fiefdoms.
Put the Pyramid in place and then allow people to choose if they want to go up or not.
Eventualy the forward thinking clubs will come forward but the FAI wont make this Omelette without Smashing a few eggs

All of which makes sense on paper - but doesn;t take into account how the FAI is structured. Thsoe blazers effectively run the show.

This is where it's for the government to force the change that the FAI needs but can't itself implement. They should make more money available to Irish football - but only in return for a restructuring to align the whole system. Then if any league wants to stick to a Winter season then they can, but will do so in splendid isolation. And any ambitious clubs who hope to receive funding for facilities etc will migrate away from them to do so. Leave the dinosaurs to wither.

[pineapple stu]

So when it comes down to it, your stuff about rugby and GAA is irrelevant and quietly dropped, the points about the clubs not wanting a pyramid is also not relevant to the fact that it's shown to be the best system, and really you seem to think the status quo is best because it's too hard to do anything else?

[EalingGreen]

How can you create a pyramid if the structures beneath the top 2 divisions appear largely disinterested/unwilling?

How would a pyramid work if a lot of clubs just aren't interested in promotion (therefore making it a bit of a farce at times) ?

Discuss.

I wouldn't pretend to have answers to those questions, or quick and easy answers, at any rate.

But I fail to see why, given time, support and encouragement etc, towns like Navan, Ennis, Carlow, Newbridge, Swords(!), Kilkenny(!), Naas, Mullingar or Letterkenny couldn't eventually sustain a senior club in the LOI, if only on a p-t basis in the First Division, or a third tier.

I mean, there are undoubtedly people in those places who are interested in football, while it's not like eg Scotland or Portugal where that interest is highly concentrated respectively in two or three giant clubs.

And if a country like Iceland can create a pyramid with 5 tiers, nine divisions and 86 clubs from a population of 375k, then there is no good reason why ROI cannot.

Unless football people consider that such a pyramid would offer no real benefits to the game in the LOI, or even might make things somehow worse?

[Buller]

The FAI need to force all leagues into a February to November year.
That at least means that the creation of a Pyramid is one step closer.
I help out in the DDSL and they have just finished until Feb anyway so this whole debate is about the length of break in the Summer.
Force Summer Season.
Force amalgamation of the Numerous leagues and to hell with the blazers trying to protect their Fiefdoms.
Put the Pyramid in place and then allow people to choose if they want to go up or not.
Eventualy the forward thinking clubs will come forward but the FAI wont make this Omelette without Smashing a few eggs

Yeah I'd absolutely agree with the season alignment. There should be an effort to align all leagues if we can without causing too much disruption to the running of junior clubs, and then consider possible pyramid structures in the future. Far too much politics in football, with separate bodies all around the country trying to operate independently.

I'm just yet to be convinced that having a pyramid is some sort of silver bullet or that its essential by any means for improving the top level game. I still think in some cases it might make some areas worse.

In my own area of Dublin theres far too many micky mouse football clubs, and one really strong, well placed GAA club. Their facilities are top class and they draw in more players and funding than all the other football clubs combined. (likely more factors than that, but you get the point!)

I'm always in favour of consolation and amalgamation! Including with the All-Ireland league :P

[Buller]

Just on this - last year, with 19 clubs, the LoI was the smallest it's been since two divisions were introduced.

Hard to argue we have 20+ clubs or that the league is growing in that case?

Ah come on, you'd measure the leagues growth financially, by the standard of play, and by crowd sizes - not by the number of clubs. If we were to use that metric, the league went through massive growth when the first division was created in the 80s and through the 90s - arguably a period of the leagues worst ever shape.

[Buller]

And if a country like Iceland can create a pyramid with 5 tiers, nine divisions and 86 clubs from a population of 375k, then there is no good reason why ROI cannot.

They're all based on the east side in and around Reykjavik and I think there's very few exceptions - so no travel costs. Makes it far easier to create.

You could make a League of Dublin overnight too with the 20 LSL divisions and the 5 Dublin LOI clubs.

[pineapple stu]

Ah come on, you'd measure the leagues growth financially, by the standard of play, and by crowd sizes - not by the number of clubs. If we were to use that metric, the league went through massive growth when the first division was created in the 80s and through the 90s - arguably a period of the leagues worst ever shape.

You mentioned the number of clubs though?

Number of clubs is very much a sign of health. A league with ten teams would be a real concern, even if they're the ten Premier teams next year say

I agree it's not a silver bullet. But it's still the right thing to do and could only be beneficial

[legendz]

You mentioned the number of clubs though?

Number of clubs is very much a sign of health. A league with ten teams would be a real concern, even if they're the ten Premier teams next year say

I agree it's not a silver bullet. But it's still the right thing to do and could only be beneficial

Which club will benefit from a pyramid and what is preventing them from joining the youths leagues as an expression of interest?

[Kiki Balboa]

I'm not fully convinced a pyramid would not cause some greater issues, particularly when it is introduced. A lot of the amateur talent is based in Dublin and in areas that are already represented by the League of Ireland. If a pyramid was introduced, the league might become more Dublin-centric- imagine Athlone and Kerry relegated for St. Francis or St. Mocthas, or a situation like Mervue and Salthill, where promoted teams are directly in the catchment areas of another well-established LOI team and seemingly have limited growth options. For example, looking at the last 16 of the 2022 Intermiedditte cup, only Maynooth is from a county without LOI representation, and really as a town, it is only a stone's throw from Dublin city (I mean Dublin bus still goes there, and it is pretty straight forward to go to St. Pats and Rovers). Point is, with where the talent and proper football teams are outside LOI, if a pyramid system was introduced today, it would more than likely just be a representative of the country as today's LOI is.


I feel like football development is a bit of chicken and the egg in Ireland. A senior LOI team helps football to grow in an area, but you need a strong football base to have a senior LOI team.


I could be wrong however, the last 16 of the FAI junior cup has 4 non-LOI counties represented (Two in Tipp, Peake Villa and St. Michaels, Freebooters in Kilkenny, Ballinasloe Town AFC from Roscommon, and Avenue United from Clare). (Not that a look at two cups in a single year is the best sample, but it is intresting that in the two cups, 6 out of the last 32 are from non-loi counties).


I feel the gap between the leagues is too big (on and off the pitch), and stops a lot of potential growth, especially for clubs in big towns that are stuck in regional leagues. It's why I feel the new regional Third Tier (ala an improved 'A' Championship) is the best option for football in the country first.

[sidewayspasser]

I think looking at the two cups indeed doesn't give you the best sample, particularly the Intermediate cup. This is because intermediate football only exists in limited pockets in the country, namely the areas that are covered by the LSL, MSL and USL. The LSL is basically consists of clubs from Dublin and a few surrounding towns, the MSL is practically a Cork league, and the USL is mainly in Donegal. Outside these, there are no intermediate leagues, so no wonder there are no teams from anywhere else in the Intermediate cup.

[pineapple stu]

But a new third tier is just an extra layer on an already failed system. We saw the issues it gave Tralee Dynamoes when they joined, and then it folded so they want back to the bottom of Kerry. That has to be a huge disincentive to joining. You need the safety net of relegation to encourage new clubs. That's the biggest failure of the A Championship.

If more clubs from areas with LoI clubs end up joining the league, so what? If it turns out like Salhill/Mervue, they'll be relegated again, and it should give Galway a root up the hole to not be so complacent.

The idea of picking, say, Carlow as a new club is just the same franchise model that's failed repeatedly in the past. Every single club bar Bray to have joined the LoI since the two-tier structure was introduced has gone bust or withdrawn from the league. And let's not forget clubs like Waterford/Wexford "going bust" to write off a load of debt and restarting at the exact same level.

[Kiki Balboa]

But a new third tier is just an extra layer on an already failed system. We saw the issues it gave Tralee Dynamoes when they joined, and then it folded so they want back to the bottom of Kerry. That has to be a huge disincentive to joining. You need the safety net of relegation to encourage new clubs. That's the biggest failure of the A Championship.

If more clubs from areas with LoI clubs end up joining the league, so what? If it turns out like Salhill/Mervue, they'll be relegated again, and it should give Galway a root up the hole to not be so complacent.

The idea of picking, say, Carlow as a new club is just the same franchise model that's failed repeatedly in the past. Every single club bar Bray to have joined the LoI since the two-tier structure was introduced has gone bust or withdrawn from the league. And let's not forget clubs like Waterford/Wexford "going bust" to write off a load of debt and restarting at the exact same level.

But this is based on that football is equally spread around the country. Its not- there are large areas that have little football infrastructure or interest, and creating a pyramid system will not address that. Secondly, teams 'go bust' the whole time in non-LOI football, and are constantly changing leagues or dropping divisions without playing any football. The 'boom/bust' cycle isnt just reserved for LOI. There would be no indication that a pyramid system would change this in LOI.

While creating a 3rd Tier would allow for hubs to develop (which should include a certain amount of resources, but it also gives a focus on who to give resources to), like Kerry FC, to provide knock on effects for soccer in whole region, while giving a division for teams to reorganise in, without dropping way down multiple tiers if things do go wrong.

Just point out, I too would much prefer a pyramid system in the country- it would be a lot fairer way to do football- but I still see issues with it. I think a regional Third Tier is an important First step towards a healthier football system in Ireland.

[pineapple stu]

The boom/bust isn't exclusively LoI, no, but it is still a big barrier to entry to it. The costs are higher in the LoI, it's a higher risk - and there's no way to drop down back to, say, the LSL top flight if things don't work out. That's the big fault with the A Championship that a pyramid system would change - the option of just dropping down to a more local division if things don't quite work out. It isn't really a division for teams to reorganise in - it's just another version of the First Division but with even less profile (if that's possible!) Cobh didn't reorganise in it, for example.

[Kiki Balboa]

The boom/bust isn't exclusively LoI, no, but it is still a big barrier to entry to it. The costs are higher in the LoI, it's a higher risk - and there's no way to drop down back to, say, the LSL top flight if things don't work out. That's the big fault with the A Championship that a pyramid system would change - the option of just dropping down to a more local division if things don't quite work out. It isn't really a division for teams to reorganise in - it's just another version of the First Division but with even less profile (if that's possible!) Cobh didn't reorganise in it, for example.

I don't think we are disagreeing much, I think a pyramid would also be great, but don't think its a bad idea to build down first. It would also be great to build up, like to reorganise the local leagues and the LSL for example, but a Third Tier is still a needed addition to link LOI to the pyramid.

I think it is not a bad idea for the FAI to provide resources to enitities in areas that are under-represented in Football help buld football in those regions (be it league teams, already established junior teams (which would be my preference), or brand new entities), and the Third Tier offers a great way to have focus with that.

I also am aware of where non-loi football is strongest is often where LOI is, and if a pyramid structure was introduced today, it would be Dublin dominated, and would crowds the pathways for regional teams to build.

[pineapple stu]

I think if you talk about building down though, you have to do it in the way it's done in, say, England/Scotland, where you take a whole existing league and add it on to the bottom. So the Scottish league built down by merging in the Highland/Lowland leagues, and now it's gone further with relegation out of those and to the levels below. Ditto England introducing promotion/relegation between Division Four and the Conference. So you merge in the MSL/LSL here (and I know there's huge politics to be overcome there)

I don't think you can do it by creating a new tier and blindly hoping clubs will join it, which is what we're trying. And not very successfully, given this thread is running a year and we're no closer to that third tier.

[culloty82]

Except, of course, it would have to be an entirely reconstructed MSL, that yes, retains some of the leading Cork clubs like Rockmount and Avondale, but also adds in some of the more ambitious junior sides in the province like Villa FC, Fairview, Pike, Clonmel, St Michael's, Killarney Celtic & Athletic, and Tralee Dynamos. Similarly, if Connacht were to be involved, it would require a division containing Salthill, Mervue, Castlebar and Boyle, among others.

[Kiki Balboa]

I think if you talk about building down though, you have to do it in the way it's done in, say, England/Scotland, where you take a whole existing league and add it on to the bottom. So the Scottish league built down by merging in the Highland/Lowland leagues, and now it's gone further with relegation out of those and to the levels below. Ditto England introducing promotion/relegation between Division Four and the Conference. So you merge in the MSL/LSL here (and I know there's huge politics to be overcome there)

I don't think you can do it by creating a new tier and blindly hoping clubs will join it, which is what we're trying. And not very successfully, given this thread is running a year and we're no closer to that third tier.

But didn't we do it before with the First?


We also don't know if it is successful yet or not, who was approached or why clubs might be hesitant. So with the absent of edvidence, we are only arguing about theoretical approaches to expansion- to which I say creating a new Third Tier is needed anyway for the football pyramid system in Ireland, and can provide a good way to focus on developing the sport in new areas.


Your leagues mentioned were probably already well-established leagues that could fit into the pyramid framework. This is absent in Ireland. You can't merge the MSL and LSL into the league of Ireland as it is today. You would need to build those leagues up from the bottom first to be truly representative of their provinces (which they aren't now)- and even at that best I could see it would they would be the 4th tier in any pyramid structure, as the gap between LSL and the First is too big for a single season jump (on and off the pitch).


In the German football pyramid, you could argue that the LSL and MSL are similar to the Regionalliga, which was their 3rd tier until 2008 (the German 3rd Liga was created from the new). But that has caused heaps of issues for German football, and are trying desperately to reform their system. This would probably be the same issue in Ireland if we only used the current competitions within a pyramid structure.



Now that I'm thinking about it, this is how I would imagine an Irish pyramid structure If I had my way and with massive resources:

1. Create a 3rd Tier ala 'A' Championship, and provide off-the-field resources to its regional clubs to help them take the step to LOI Football (resources such as grants for coaching licenses, grants towards a director of football, grants towards facilities, grants towards hiring professional CEO/ someone in charge of building a support base)
   
2. Give the same resources to teams struggling in the First to help the rebuild (for example Athlone)
   
3. Cut the provincial leagues to one or two divisions, and then have subdivisions under it that are regionalised
   
4. have the local leagues feed into these regionalised provincial leagues

Something like this:

LOI Premier
LOI First
LOI Third Tier North				LOI Third Tier South
USL/CSL		LSL				MSL
North	South	North	Dublin		South	North	South
Regional/ Local Leagues

I think it would be great to have the LSL and MSL eventually feed into the Third Tier too, but I would prefer to build a new Third Tier first.

[pineapple stu]

But didn't we do it before with the First?

Yes - but hasn't that just deferred the same problem we had anyway?

We also don't know if it is successful yet or not, who was approached or why clubs might be hesitant. So with the absent of edvidence, we are only arguing about theoretical approaches to expansion

I think we can argue it was unsuccessful. We know the FAI had a plan to launch a 20-team third tier for 2023 and yet 12 months later we have not a single club for it (granted, some of the clubs would have been reserve teams). The only new team in that time, Kerry, are plugging a gap in the First Division, which has a pretty big rate of attrition. That's a failure in my eye.

You can't merge the MSL and LSL into the league of Ireland as it is today. You would need to build those leagues up from the bottom first to be truly representative of their provinces (which they aren't now)- and even at that best I could see it would they would be the 4th tier in any pyramid structure, as the gap between LSL and the First is too big for a single season jump (on and off the pitch).

There's something in this for sure. Yes, the MSL/LSL need to be more than a Cork/Dublin league for sure. And yes, you need to get rid of silly stuff like the AUL/United Churches League and the various district leagues.

But I still think it's the proper plan, even if it can't be just clicked into place like the Highland/Lowland league in Scotland. It'd be quicker than trying to convince 12 new clubs to jump up.

And I think MSL/LSL clubs are less likely to want to be promoted to a national third tier than to the First Division tbh. If the First Division is a graveyard, what's the third tier going to be like, when a good chunk of it is B teams (not hugely popular among "real" clubs on the continent afaik. I wouldn't be worried about the jump - let them have a target to bridge.

In the German football pyramid, you could argue that the LSL and MSL are similar to the Regionalliga, which was their 3rd tier until 2008 (the German 3rd Liga was created from the new). But that has caused heaps of issues for German football

Such as what, out of interest?

[legendz]

Two pyramids is probably an Irish solution. Pyramid 1: Premier Division, First Division and the Third Tier. Pyramid 2: All district leagues offering a pathway to a provincial/regional league.