Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[EatYerGreens]

Then Derry City should rejoin the IFA since the reason of their original expulsion/exemption no longer exists.

I'm pretty sure they are members of both the IFA and the FAI ? Hence their women can play in the north.

Obviously what the LOI really needs is to lose another club.

What do you believe were the reasons why Dery City left the IL btw? Given that the reasons why Bohs and Shels left the IL in 1921/22 arguably no longer apply either, I suspect you haven't thought this through entirely Losing one LOI club to the north would be careless. Losing 3 would be a calamity.

[legendz]

Summer football?

Winter football?

Both?

Any district leagues offering promotion to the same league should align their seasons to be the same for obvious reasons.
The FAI have made noises that they want to increase the geographical spread of the youth leagues. If a third tier comes about, it should allow applications from non league entities in the youth leagues, e.g. any region that might try and replicate what Kerry FC are trying to do. For this reason the mooted third tier and the suggested promotion from district leagues to intermediate leagues can offer a dual pyramid approach.

[Burnsie]

That's where the FAI should step in, as they did with senior football in the early 2000s, saying there would be a short transitional season in the autumn, in order for all the intermediate and junior leagues to align to the summer football calendar.

that'd make for one hell of row.

I believe it's been FAI policy to switch everything to calendar year for some years now but when the DDSL took advantage of the post-Delaney meltdown to unilaterally move back to a winter season, that holed the plan below the water - and there's certainly been no love lost between that organisation and the FAI in the meantime.

And the LSL recently voted comprehensively against a switch to a calendar season.

So that's the biggest underage and adult leagues (by a large margin, in both cases) who'd need to perform spectacular about-turns

[legendz]

that'd make for one hell of row.

I believe it's been FAI policy to switch everything to calendar year for some years now but when the DDSL took advantage of the post-Delaney meltdown to unilaterally move back to a winter season, that holed the plan below the water - and there's certainly been no love lost between that organisation and the FAI in the meantime.

And the LSL recently voted comprehensively against a switch to a calendar season.

So that's the biggest underage and adult leagues (by a large margin, in both cases) who'd need to perform spectacular about-turns

The LSL rejecting the calendar season is a vote that they are not seeking promotion to the League of Ireland. Let them be. Promotion from district leagues to intermediate leagues can coexist with a separate third tier. It's the lie of the land.

[GUFCghost]

I think you're dead right, Legendz.
Let intermediate and senior football run parallel to each other for a while. In the meantime we can resurrect the A-Championship and hopefully a combination of reforms making intermediate football stronger and properly regional combined with a strong A-Championship will make clubs actually want to climb the ladder.

Or maybe not, maybe the intermediate clubs will be happy as big fish in small ponds for ever. In that case we're better off with intermediate leagues that atleast have a proper geographic spread. Lord knows how many good players have been lost in Connacht since the CSL was abandoned.

[culloty82]

The "aim" for the proposed third tier has now been officially postponed until 2024:

https://twitter.com/OCowzer/status/1550819477092171776

[pineapple stu]

I am shocked.

It'd be interesting to see if there's been any real progress towards it in the background at all.

[sadloserkid]

I am also flabbergasted at this news. I suppose it gives Irish Sea an extra year to get their house in order.

[sidewayspasser]

Not surprised at all to be honest. It was all too quiet on that front in the past few months. When the news came through that Kerry FC are looking for a FD license for next year, with no official word on the third tier in that context, it already looked like there won't be a third tier in 2023.
Should I hold my breath for 2024? I'm not sure...

[culloty82]

If any new sides move up to the U19 league in 2023, that would indicate they're considering senior status - that said, can't imagine anyone bar Kildare being prepared for that at present.

[sadloserkid]

Dropping the Klub part of their name should be a requirement for any Kildare plans to step up.

[EatYerGreens]

The "aim" for the proposed third tier has now been officially postponed until 2024:

https://twitter.com/OCowzer/status/1550819477092171776

As the old saying goes 'A League of Ireland third tier is the future - and always wil be'.

[EatYerGreens]

Dropping the Klub part of their name should be a requirement for any Kildare plans to step up.

Kouldn't agree more.

[sbgawa]

The fai should spend the next year kicking the leinster senior league and DDSL suits into a calender year. Time for the association to actually run football in ireland. Whatever it takes to make the suits see sense

[Burnsie]

The LSL chairman, was on the board for a time at FAI nua, during that initial transition phase, but then lost his seat, and also lost the election for President (or Vice?). He now seems to have beef with the FAI, and was asking pointed questions from the floor at the FAI AGM last weekend.

So while he definitely seemed open to the idea of a calendar year season, I don't be amenable to strong-arming.

(but you're entirely correct in your general point)

[legendz]

Shamrock Rovers are the only League of Ireland club with the ambition to field a reserve team?
Kildare, Carlow Kilkenny and Cavan Monaghan are only at U17 level. A Harps supporter doesn't see much of a future for Cavan Monaghan.
'23 has become '24 and will probably become '25 etc.

[GUFCghost]

"All the leagues are connected by a promotion and relegation system, but in order to be promoted to the Eerste Divisie a club has to submit a solid business plan to be approved by the Royal Dutch Football Association, as well as meet certain stadium demands, and some other demands that the association stated for all the teams in the top two leagues."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_..._league_system Came across this in a random discussion, reminded me of our own situation.

I think a lot of people here are caught up in imitating the scots & the english. I particularly don't buy this idea that "everyone else has a pyramid and so should we" because it's not totally true and even if it was, is a system that works in a highly urbanized, 50 million plus country going to work in a much smaller country where the population is spread out?

[EalingGreen]

"All the leagues are connected by a promotion and relegation system, but in order to be promoted to the Eerste Divisie a club has to submit a solid business plan to be approved by the Royal Dutch Football Association, as well as meet certain stadium demands, and some other demands that the association stated for all the teams in the top two leagues."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_..._league_system Came across this in a random discussion, reminded me of our own situation.

What you describe in Netherlands IS a pyramid, just one adapted to their own particular circumstances.

Re. the Business Plan, they presumably think it essential, since promotion to the 2nd level entails going from Amateur to Professional. It is not needed eg in England, since clubs in the 5th tier all f-t, and those in the 6th, 7th and 8th tiers etc are p-t.

As for the stadium requirements, exactly the same exists eg in England, where teams getting promoted from the 5th tier to the EFL need a grass pitch, in a stadium which holds at least 5k spectators. Initially 1k of these have to be seats, with this raised to 2k by the end of a third consecutive season at that level. And I'm pretty sure that simply bolting seats onto terraces doesn't count - i.e. they have to be properly installed and under cover etc, with proper turmstiles, exits, toilets and catering facilities etc.
Meaning that since Harrogate Town gained promotion to the EFL for season 2021/22, they've needed to spend £3.4m upgrading their stadium and pitch to the required standard, while ground-sharing with Doncaster until the minimum work was completed:
https://www.thestadiumbusiness.com/2...-improvements/

I think a lot of people here are caught up in imitating the scots & the english. I particularly don't buy this idea that "everyone else has a pyramid and so should we" because it's not totally true and even if it was, is a system that works in a highly urbanized, 50 million plus country going to work in a much smaller country where the population is spread out?

"A much smaller country where the population is spread out", is it?

Scotalnd has just 400k more people than ROI, but is also more spread out, while NI has only 40% of the ROI's population, albeit with greater population density [insert own joke here].

Both easily maintain a footballing pyramid.

[GUFCghost]

What you describe in Netherlands IS a pyramid, just one adapted to their own particular circumstances.

Re. the Business Plan, they presumably think it essential, since promotion to the 2nd level entails going from Amateur to Professional. It is not needed eg in England, since clubs in the 5th tier all f-t, and those in the 6th, 7th and 8th tiers etc are p-t.

As for the stadium requirements, exactly the same exists eg in England, where teams getting promoted from the 5th tier to the EFL need a grass pitch, in a stadium which holds at least 5k spectators. Initially 1k of these have to be seats, with this raised to 2k by the end of a third consecutive season at that level. And I'm pretty sure that simply bolting seats onto terraces doesn't count - i.e. they have to be properly installed and under cover etc, with proper turmstiles, exits, toilets and catering facilities etc.
Meaning that since Harrogate Town gained promotion to the EFL for season 2021/22, they've needed to spend £3.4m upgrading their stadium and pitch to the required standard, while ground-sharing with Doncaster until the minimum work was completed:
https://www.thestadiumbusiness.com/2...-improvements/


"A much smaller country where the population is spread out", is it?

Scotalnd has just 400k more people than ROI, but is also more spread out, while NI has only 40% of the ROI's population, albeit with greater population density [insert own joke here].

Both easily maintain a footballing pyramid.

And football is the number one sport without a doubt in Scotland. They also have most of the population concentrated in the lowlands, it's much more urban country than Ireland.

I suppose the dutch do have a pyramid, with a large landing area right before the top where most clubs just soak up the sun rather than going up.

[EalingGreen]

And football is the number one sport without a doubt in Scotland.

True, but even with that obvious advantage, the game in Scotland is so MUCH biiger than in ROI, no matter how you measure it.

While NI has equal competition to ROI from GAA and Rugby, and arguably more from Hockey and Cricket, albeit that those last two team sports are pretty minor. (And we "lost" Derry City, a big club in a big-ish city).

They also have most of the population concentrated in the lowlands, it's much more urban country than Ireland.

Really?

The 7 eastern counties of Louth, Meath, Dublin, Kildare, Wickloe, Carlow and Wexford account for over 3.3m of ROI's population of 5m, while only covering a small proportion of its landmass. This must be at least as concentrated as the Scottish Lowlands, and rather more than the Central belt, which I'd say is the Scots equivalent.

I suppose the dutch do have a pyramid, with a large landing area right before the top where most clubs just soak up the sun rather than going up.

Maybe, but the point is that those clubs who do want more than just to sunbathe have a structure which allows them to do just that.

Meanwhile, Dutch football was wholly amateur until 1954, when the Eredivisie was formed, itself mostly semi-pro to start with. Which considering they were winning European Cups by the mid-70's, shows just how quickly they progressed..