Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[nigel-harps1954]

LSL shouldn't be given the opportunity to vote. If the FAI are serious about footballing reforms they need to enforce calendar season across the board.

[pineapple stu]

The effective third tier being run at a completely different time to the first and second tiers can quite rightly be described as an "almighty mess" in fairness.

[legendz]

Across the water, U23 teams have competed in the EFL Trophy. That was controversial enough but more acceptable for EFL clubs than U23 teams joined League One and League Two.
U23 teams in England then compete in a separate league with relegation to test them in that environment.
The First Division as we know have been completely against the idea of second teams joining the division. A third tier can be a blank canvas opportunity to form a "Second Division". Allow second teams (U23) but with the stipulation that they cannot be promoted to the First Division. Second teams can have a stipulation that at least 5 outfield players are U23. Third level institutions that aren't part of the youth leagues can similarly be granted an U23 licence.

Example "Second Division":
Carlow Kilkenny*
Cavan Monaghan*
Kildare*
Mayo*
Shamrock Rovers U23
UCC U23
UL U23
NUIG U23
* Only these first teams can be considered for promotion to the First Division.

[sbgawa]

Across the water, U23 teams have competed in the EFL Trophy. That was controversial enough but more acceptable for EFL clubs than U23 teams joined League One and League Two.
U23 teams in England then compete in a separate league with relegation to test them in that environment.
The First Division as we know have been completely against the idea of second teams joining the division. A third tier can be a blank canvas opportunity to form a "Second Division". Allow second teams (U23) but with the stipulation that they cannot be promoted to the First Division. Second teams can have a stipulation that at least 5 outfield players are U23. Third level institutions that aren't part of the youth leagues can similarly be granted an U23 licence.

Example "Second Division":
Carlow Kilkenny*
Cavan Monaghan*
Kildare*
Mayo*
Shamrock Rovers U23
UCC U23
UL U23
NUIG U23
* Only these first teams can be considered for promotion to the First Division.

I disagree with not allowing promotion to division 1 for reserve teams.
Why on earth would Rovers or any of the other teams have the expense of running a team in the 3rd division where the standard would be very weak by definition and you have no hope of advancement.
Promotion to the Premier division should be out for Rovers or any other reserve team but if UCC or UL or NUIG are good enough to be promoted what makes them different from UCD?

[legendz]

I disagree with not allowing promotion to division 1 for reserve teams.
Why on earth would Rovers or any of the other teams have the expense of running a team in the 3rd division where the standard would be very weak by definition and you have no hope of advancement.
Promotion to the Premier division should be out for Rovers or any other reserve team but if UCC or UL or NUIG are good enough to be promoted what makes them different from UCD?

Why did Shamrock Rovers previously enter the First Division when no promotion was available?
An U23 licence should be granted for any level below the First Division. If UCC or UL or NUIG want to earn promotion to the First Division, they'll have to qualify for a First Division licence instead of an U23 licence. That should require joining the youth leagues.

[sbgawa]

Why did Shamrock Rovers previously enter the First Division when no promotion was available?
An U23 licence should be granted for any level below the First Division. If UCC or UL or NUIG want to earn promotion to the First Division, they'll have to qualify for a First Division licence instead of an U23 licence. That should require joining the youth leagues.

Because the first division was a reasonable standard and was a reasonably attractive option to retain academy players who were being recruited by other teams while they developed into first team players.
Promotion to the first division should be allowed on merit

[legendz]

Because the first division was a reasonable standard and was a reasonably attractive option to retain academy players who were being recruited by other teams while they developed into first team players.
Promotion to the first division should be allowed on merit

If First Division clubs are adamant against it, it should not be forced down their throats. If Shamrock Rovers likewise are adamant against a Second Division without promotion, so be it.

[sbgawa]

If First Division clubs are adamant against it, it should not be forced down their throats. If Shamrock Rovers likewise are adamant against a Second Division without promotion, so be it.

Its up to the FAI to lead not allow a few clubs veto ideas for self preservation and to try to avoid relegation..
If the FAI want the better clubs to invest in their academies they have to have a prospect of retaining talent past 19 years old.
Its harder for kids to break into Derry/Dundalk/Rovers first team at 18/19 so they need a place to play at a high standard while remaining attached to the club and training with them everyday to progress

[legendz]

Its up to the FAI to lead not allow a few clubs veto ideas for self preservation and to try to avoid relegation..
If the FAI want the better clubs to invest in their academies they have to have a prospect of retaining talent past 19 years old.
Its harder for kids to break into Derry/Dundalk/Rovers first team at 18/19 so they need a place to play at a high standard while remaining attached to the club and training with them everyday to progress

I agree about giving clubs the opportunity to retain players past U19. We'll have to agree to disagree about the First Division or potential Second Division being a fair level.

[GUFCghost]

Is there another country in Europe that went from having a poor & disjointed pyramid to something that actually works?

[culloty82]

Is there another country in Europe that went from having a poor & disjointed pyramid to something that actually works?

Wales had a similarly disjointed system, largely run by local leagues, until the FAW imposed a coherent, joined-up affair from HQ:

https://www.faw.cymru/en/about-faw/d...yramid-review/

[EalingGreen]

Is there another country in Europe that went from having a poor & disjointed pyramid to something that actually works?

Ahem...

"In 2010-11, a "pyramid" system was introduced, with the possibility of promotion and relegation between the national league [3 x divisions each of 12 teams] and the four regional intermediate leagues..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northe..._league_system

[The Bowler]

Another big issue here is underage structures. Currently LOI clubs are obligated to provide underage structures. Let's say after 3 or 4 years of 3rd tier, you could have 3 or 4 teams promoted into the 1st Division, and same number potentially the other way. The teams promoted have no underage structures (certainly not at national level) and those relegated stillbearing the costs of their previously compulsory underage academy structures. FAI can't even enforce a common football calendar year, what chance of them ever being able to get this away. The only way football pyramid structure can work in this country is to firstly align the seasons, and secondly go down the roD of municipal stadia jointly funded by FAI, Lottery, Govt and Private partnership. No facilities equals no meaningful future. Its a 10 year plan at a minimum and requires fully joined up thinking. I'm not hopeful

[legendz]

The mooted third tier can be the start of the construction of a national pyramid, separate to the senior leagues and district leagues.
LoI clubs accepted that the A Championship offered promotion for First teams only. An "A Championship" or "National League" can be created for the same purposes.
Let interested clubs and non league entities join the league, as long as they are integrated into the youth leagues as well.
I've rebranded my earlier example as follows:
Example "National League":
Carlow Kilkenny*
Cavan Monaghan*
Kildare*
Mayo*
Shamrock Rovers U23
UCC U23
UL U23
NUIG U23
* Only the best of these first teams can be considered for a promotion/relegation play-off to the First Division.
If the National League example above was to expand to more than 16 teams, it could split into an extra tier.

[culloty82]

Another big issue here is underage structures. Currently LOI clubs are obligated to provide underage structures. Let's say after 3 or 4 years of 3rd tier, you could have 3 or 4 teams promoted into the 1st Division, and same number potentially the other way. The teams promoted have no underage structures (certainly not at national level) and those relegated stillbearing the costs of their previously compulsory underage academy structures. FAI can't even enforce a common football calendar year, what chance of them ever being able to get this away. The only way football pyramid structure can work in this country is to firstly align the seasons, and secondly go down the roD of municipal stadia jointly funded by FAI, Lottery, Govt and Private partnership. No facilities equals no meaningful future. Its a 10 year plan at a minimum and requires fully joined up thinking. I'm not hopeful

Certainly, the RSC is an excellent facility, which shows the potential of the model .

[Neish]

I disagree with not allowing promotion to division 1 for reserve teams.
Why on earth would Rovers or any of the other teams have the expense of running a team in the 3rd division where the standard would be very weak by definition and you have no hope of advancement.
Promotion to the Premier division should be out for Rovers or any other reserve team but if UCC or UL or NUIG are good enough to be promoted what makes them different from UCD?

To give game time to fringe players, to ease player back from injury, and third but not last they did it before with Shamrock Rovers B in the first division.
Reserve sides in lower tiers not eligible for promotion happens across Europe

[EalingGreen]

The mooted third tier can be the start of the construction of a national pyramid...

No offence, but that doesn't make any sense.

For the whole point about a pyramid is that it should be possible, in theory at least, for each and every member to rise from base to apex, subject only to meeting playing standards on the field, and minimum infrastructure standards off it.

Hence there should be a "level playing field" (sorry) for membership, meaning no distinctions between different types of team (Reserve teams, Further Education teams, age restrictions etc), with each member expected to live within its means according to raising revenues from the normal sources - gate receipts, sponsorship, corporate, advertising, benefactors, social clubs etc. How many of your proposed members would be up to that?

Meanwhile, if it takes such contortions to come up with a 3rd tier, where are you going to find the teams to fill a 4th, 5th or 6th tier underneath? (All of which is before you address the summer/winter conundrum, remember)

And even if you did, would all your 3rd tier teams be able or willing to accept relegation to the 4th or 5th tier, should they hit a rough patch on the field?

In the end, you can only fit so many square pegs into round holes - sooner or later you're going to have to start finding round pegs.

... separate to the senior leagues and district leagues.

Sorry, but I don't quite understand this?

Or shouldn't additional tiers to the pyramid come from such resiources?

[EatYerGreens]

Three tiers IS a pyramid. Just a rather small one.

[EalingGreen]

Why on earth would Rovers or any of the other teams have the expense of running a team in the 3rd division where the standard would be very weak by definition and you have no hope of advancement.

To give game time to fringe players, to ease player back from injury, and third but not last they did it before with Shamrock Rovers B in the first division.
Reserve sides in lower tiers not eligible for promotion happens across Europe

In order to provide square holes* for square pegs, the NIFL operates a "Premiership Development" (Reserve) league for the 12 clubs in the Premiership:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/pre...022/standings/

While 9 of the teams in the Championship who operate a reserve team are in the Championship Development league, along with 7 other leading clubs with development teams who wish to compete at that level:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/cha...022/standings/


* - Even Glenavon have a Reserve team, and Lurgan's one (s)quare hole!

[pineapple stu]

Three tiers IS a pyramid. Just a rather small one.

It's a disjointed one given the amount of leagues that aren't connected. And effectively useless as a result. So if it's a pyramid, it's not remotely worth red name in practice