Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[pineapple stu]

Ruud Dokter pushed for a pyramid.

It works in pretty much every other country. We're the complete outliers here. This isn't a "some things work better in some places" issue. This is a "we're completely out of kilter with everyone else and suffering because of it" issue.

[legendz]

Ruud Dokter pushed for a pyramid.

It works in pretty much every other country. We're the complete outliers here. This isn't a "some things work better in some places" issue. This is a "we're completely out of kilter with everyone else and suffering because of it" issue.

He wasn't taking his own advice!

[pineapple stu]

He wasn't able to suddenly magic up a pyramid because there's too many vested interests happy with the way things are.

Here is is quite literally saying "I’m here because I’ve come from a country with a big history in youth development. I’m not here to copy that system but I’m here to instil some principles of development, which are all over the world the same… you need to have a pyramid structure, one way or another."

[legendz]

He wasn't able to suddenly magic up a pyramid because there's too many vested interests happy with the way things are.

Here is is quite literally saying "I’m here because I’ve come from a country with a big history in youth development. I’m not here to copy that system but I’m here to instil some principles of development, which are all over the world the same… you need to have a pyramid structure, one way or another."

With the internal politics around senior leagues and district leagues, why bother with the headache? The third tier circumvents the headache.
I like the ideal of every county having League of Ireland representation. I accept that this might be a GAA influenced mindset. The reality then is that cross county partnerships is the way to go in some regions.
Cavan Monaghan and Carlow Kilkenny are sensible partnerships looking beyond the county boundaries. Laois Offaly might do something similar in time. Sligo Rovers can draw on the Leitrim catchment area? Clare and North Tipperary are best linked to Treaty? South Tipperary then with Waterford?
I think this only leaves Meath and Roscommon. They can either follow the path of Kerry and Mayo or be content to be the catchment area for LoI clubs in neighbouring counties.

[pineapple stu]

The third tier doesn't circumvent the headache. It just pushes it down a tier, but it's still very much there.

Why bother with the headache? Because it's what we need for clubs to develop and advance.

[EatYerGreens]

With the internal politics around senior leagues and district leagues, why bother with the headache? The third tier circumvents the headache.
I like the ideal of every county having League of Ireland representation. I accept that this might be a GAA influenced mindset. The reality then is that cross county partnerships is the way to go in some regions.
Cavan Monaghan and Carlow Kilkenny are sensible partnerships looking beyond the county boundaries. Laois Offaly might do something similar in time. Sligo Rovers can draw on the Leitrim catchment area? Clare and North Tipperary are best linked to Treaty? South Tipperary then with Waterford?
I think this only leaves Meath and Roscommon. They can either follow the path of Kerry and Mayo or be content to be the catchment area for LoI clubs in neighbouring counties.

Honestly - the idea that every county should have an LOI club is just daft. Kildare has seven times the population of Leitrim. Why should each have an LOI club ? Just because ? Especially when there are no established clubs there to build one around. Tipperary has 4 times the population of Longford, yet couldn't sustain an LOI club for longer than a few seasons when it tried. And some counties have big geographical splits - e.g. like north and south Roscommon, north and south Tipperary, south and north-west Derry, north and south Down, north and south Leitrim etc. They're like 2 different worlds that just happen to inhabit the same county, but in reality have more to do with neighbouring counties than with the rest of their own county. People in places like Boyle in North Roscommon would tend towards Sligo Rovers. Anyone in the south of the county who is interested in LOI has Athlone. Folk in North Leitrim have Sligo Rovers.

Football is a predominantly urban sport. The unit around which to aspire to have sustainable club sshould therefore be significant towns and cities. But again, you can't just magic them up - they need to be developed out of existing clubs and structures. Especially in somewhere like Ireland where there are other sports and factors to take into consideration re the potential viability of senior football clubs.

[Kiki Balboa]

Honestly - the idea that every county should have an LOI club is just daft. Kildare has seven times the population of Leitrim. Why should each have an LOI club ? Just because ? Especially when there are no established clubs there to build one around. Tipperary has 4 times the population of Longford, yet couldn't sustain an LOI club for longer than a few seasons when it tried. And some counties have big geographical splits - e.g. like north and south Roscommon, north and south Tipperary, south and north-west Derry, north and south Down, north and south Leitrim etc. They're like 2 different worlds that just happen to inhabit the same county, but in reality have more to do with neighbouring counties than with the rest of their own county. People in places like Boyle in North Roscommon would tend towards Sligo Rovers. Anyone in the south of the county who is interested in LOI has Athlone. Folk in North Leitrim have Sligo Rovers.

Football is a predominantly urban sport. The unit around which to aspire to have sustainable club sshould therefore be significant towns and cities. But again - you can't just magic them up - they need to be developed out of existing clubs and structures. Especially in somewhere like Ireland where there are other sports and factors to take into consideration re the potential viability of senior football clubs. .

On the flipside, there might be teams being held back because the jump from local junior league to the LOI First Division is just too big. So clubs who could become LOI teams become stagnant in there local leagues, as they cant develop any further, without a huge risk of trying to jump to Senior Football. Having a pyramid structure (which the Third Tier would be the first step to implement) would allow for these clubs to grow, and those soccer niches to be promoted.

Also, a big issue for these regional teams (which should be talked about too) is players and player standards. Any decent player would be snapped up by a professional club, while in is unlikely a local area (in nearly any area of Ireland) on its own could provide players for a competitive team. Regional teams like Monaghan and Longford often got lads from Dublin to play as they are at the required standard.... but then local fans get annoyed the team is full of Dubs. So even if there is abig enough supporter base to support two close teams, like FC Carlow and Kilkenny City, maybe the lack of local players of a good enough quality would greatly hurt both teams.

So that is a problem any future team, how to balance competition, money, and local quality together.

[legendz]

The third tier doesn't circumvent the headache. It just pushes it down a tier, but it's still very much there.

Why bother with the headache? Because it's what we need for clubs to develop and advance.

A third tier licence is far more achievable than a First Division licence. When a First Division club drops out, it can damage the LoI brand. A third tier that is a step out of the spotlight can have the space for teams to come and go more easily. An Irish solution for an Irish problem.

[pineapple stu]

"An Irish solution to an Irish problem" is a meaningless soundbite when the FAI's own head of Development is pointing out that literally everyone else does things a different way, and he really recommends we follow suit.

[legendz]

Honestly - the idea that every county should have an LOI club is just daft. Kildare has seven times the population of Leitrim. Why should each have an LOI club ? Just because ? Especially when there are no established clubs there to build one around. Tipperary has 4 times the population of Longford, yet couldn't sustain an LOI club for longer than a few seasons when it tried. And some counties have big geographical splits - e.g. like north and south Roscommon, north and south Tipperary, south and north-west Derry, north and south Down, north and south Leitrim etc. They're like 2 different worlds that just happen to inhabit the same county, but in reality have more to do with neighbouring counties than with the rest of their own county. People in places like Boyle in North Roscommon would tend towards Sligo Rovers. Anyone in the south of the county who is interested in LOI has Athlone. Folk in North Leitrim have Sligo Rovers.

Football is a predominantly urban sport. The unit around which to aspire to have sustainable club sshould therefore be significant towns and cities. But again, you can't just magic them up - they need to be developed out of existing clubs and structures. Especially in somewhere like Ireland where there are other sports and factors to take into consideration re the potential viability of senior football clubs.

Once upon a time, Limerick changed their name to Limerick City and cut off the rest of the county?
For those of us with an ideal of county representation, I guess it is GAA influenced.
I do accept however that the football landscape is different. Every region is different too. There are clubs that represent a part of a city, clubs that represent a whole city/town and then there are some clubs that represent a broader region.
You are fully correct that you cannot magic up a club. Tralee Dynamos, Tullamore and Castlebar tried to develop in the A Championship and were then banished to the wilderness.
The Youth Leagues of Ireland are a game changer. The youth leagues are allowing non LoI entities to develop. These entities seem to have the acceptance of district clubs. If an existing club isn't willing to step up to senior level, the path is clear for a club to be formed for the region. It is an organic growth as opposed to trying to magic up a club.
If Kerry FC get into the league. When Mayo have players who are moving beyond U19 level, a Castlebar either steps up to senior or they might look at the Kerry FC model. Either route is feasible and both routes are practical. Kerry FC seems a sensible direction for Kerry. Castlebar might be a more sensible direction for Mayo. That'll be for the Mayo folk to decide.

[culloty82]

Both EatYerGreens and legendz have sensible points, in that some counties like Tipp, Clare, and Laois evidently have no interest or intention of pursuing senior status, giving the disinclination to enter the underage leagues, but it is the best platform for Kildare, Cavan/Monaghan and Carlow/Kilkenny to pursue future ambitions, assuming, like Kerry, they eventually want their own adult set-up for local players.

[nigel-harps1954]

Cavan/Monaghan underage setup is a total basket case, the whipping boys of the Northern section of the underage leagues, and will never become a senior setup.

[EatYerGreens]

Once upon a time, Limerick changed their name to Limerick City and cut off the rest of the county?

I don't buy this idea that adopting the name 'city' meant that a guillotine came down between the club and the rest of the county. Firstly - clubs like Limerick have always had support from outside their own town, and even outside the county. Longford Town hasn't cut itself off from the county. People in Leitrim and Roscommon seem to have no issue supporting a team called Sligo. Folk from Tyrone and Donegal go to Derry City games. And so on. Also - the 'County' name didn't exactly do wonders for Kildare's support levels. So this is just a flaweed theory IMO. Secondly - Limerick (or more correctly, Pat Grace) changed name to Limerick City because Limerick United got embroiled in a messy court case.

When Mayo have players who are moving beyond U19 level, a Castlebar either steps up to senior or they might look at the Kerry FC model. Either route is feasible and both routes are practical. Kerry FC seems a sensible direction for Kerry. Castlebar might be a more sensible direction for Mayo. That'll be for the Mayo folk to decide.

As a mnor aside, it is a tiny bit strange that there is no 'celtic' club in the LOI currently (I know there was one in Cork in the past). The north has a couple of 'Rangers' in its upper tiers, as you'd expect given where support for football in many towns there primarily comes from. I'm sure people from beyond Ireland would be surprised to hear there isn't a celtic playing somewhere in our senior game. So step up Castlebar

[Kiki Balboa]

I think it is wishful thinking that there is some kind of 'cheat code' that if a club is called County or City, it will automatically bring in fans.

I wouldn't write it off though completely. Its important to attach the club to somthing with cultural capital.

But it is important to note that soccer is not like any other sport in Ireland. Dublin City didnt work, Kildare County didnt work. There are other far more important aspects of running a club.

[sadloserkid]

I'm awaiting Louth County's arrival on the scene and the inevitable crushing of Dundalk and Drogheda that will follow as fans desert them in droves to worship at the feet of the new entity.

[EatYerGreens]

I think it is wishful thinking that there is some kind of 'cheat code' that if a club is called County or City, it will automatically bring in fans.

I wouldn't write it off though completely. Its important to attach the club to somthing with cultural capital.

But it is important to note that soccer is not like any other sport in Ireland. Dublin City didnt work, Kildare County didnt work. There are other far more important aspects of running a club.

It will go down as one of history's great losses that Irish Sea FC never got to prove that their's was the name that the barstooling fans have all been waiting for.

Although I prefer the 'Wild Atlantic Wallys FC'.

[legendz]

It will go down as one of history's great losses that Irish Sea FC never got to prove that their's was the name that the barstooling fans have all been waiting for.

Although I prefer the 'Wild Atlantic Wallys FC'.

Dublin Dons never got their opportunity either! 😉

[EatYerGreens]

Dublin Dons never got their opportunity either! 

They could have merged with Irish Sea FC. To create the Dublin Don Quays....

[legendz]

They could have merged with Irish Sea FC. To create the Dublin Don Quays....

Very appropriate!! 🤣

[Nesta99]

I'm awaiting Louth County's arrival on the scene and the inevitable crushing of Dundalk and Drogheda that will follow as fans desert them in droves to worship at the feet of the new entity.

Ye remember yer chastising me about posts letting myself down?? Well even to jest at such things as the above is a low as it gets - put me off my tea you inconsiderate eh sad loser ffs like...