Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

**Kiki Balboa** · 09/06/2022, 12:53 PM

The problem with the relegation from the First Division is that a team might finish near the bottom of the Third Tier, but only 'B' Teams finish ahead of them. Then they get a chance for promotion, despite being a weaker Third Tier team. That has no sporting merit, or good for the First Division (or the teams in the Third Tier who might get promoted too fast for their development). So how implementing a consistent promotion/ relegation will be a hard issue to solve, especially in the early years when you would expect LOI 'B' teams to be stronger.

Maybe I am way too positive about it, but I feel there is a directional change in Irish Football. I think (more) junior and intermediate teams are also looking for changes in the national structures, which a more integrated league system gives. I would be confident that after 5 years or so, another division would be added or that the provincial leagues would join under the Third Tier (which is the goal of the current FAI).

Other things like rules will have to be looked at. Are the squads going to be set during Transfer windows (no movement between senior and b squad), or is there going to allowence for players. Dfferent countries handle it in different ways.

**pineapple stu** · 09/06/2022, 1:00 PM

Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa

Maybe I am way too positive about it, but I feel there is a directional change in Irish Football.

I think that's fair alright. I think a third tier as mooted just extends the bad system we have at present rather than does anything to address the issues, but if it's a step towards proper joined-up thinking, then it's to be welcomed for sure.

**sadloserkid** · 09/06/2022, 1:45 PM

Kildare could have dropped into the A Championship if they'd been so inclined, no? I really enjoyed it as a competition but let's not pretend it was a silver bullet. It's long enough ago now too that it's of negligible relevance to the freshly mooted Tier 3. Watching Limerick in places like Tullamore and whatever little village Carlow played in (Balon?) was fun though.

Show of hands lads, do we think we'll actually have a Tier 3 next season? I'd be leaning toward 'no' unfortunately.

**legendz** · 09/06/2022, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Is an U23 team really needed given our team now is entirely college students anyway?

I think even just dropping clubs like Monaghan or Kildare into a third tier is the wrong way to go about developing them. The lack of a pyramid has problems in so many ways. Are the strongest clubs being promoted? Are they missing out on the buzz of a promotion campaign to lead them into the first season at a new level? What happens if you want to drop a level down from the third tier? Is there an issue with trickle-down development of facilities (see the recent discussion on how the pyramid in England has strengthened the Conference no end in the last couple of decades)

If UCD don't need an U23 team, that's fair enough if that's where they are.
A pyramid sounds great but does it lead to a repeat of the 3 clubs in Galway situation?
The underage leagues have sensibly accepted entrants from non LoI areas. Applying a similar logic to a third tier is an Irish solution to an Irish problem.
Before Kildare's final season, they wanted to step down to the A Championship. They were encouraged to stay in the First Division. A year later, they were gone.

Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa

The problem with the relegation from the First Division is that a team might finish near the bottom of the Third Tier, but only 'B' Teams finish ahead of them. Then they get a chance for promotion, despite being a weaker Third Tier team. That has no sporting merit, or good for the First Division (or the teams in the Third Tier who might get promoted too fast for their development). So how implementing a consistent promotion/ relegation will be a hard issue to solve, especially in the early years when you would expect LOI 'B' teams to be stronger.

Maybe I am way too positive about it, but I feel there is a directional change in Irish Football. I think (more) junior and intermediate teams are also looking for changes in the national structures, which a more integrated league system gives. I would be confident that after 5 years or so, another division would be added or that the provincial leagues would join under the Third Tier (which is the goal of the current FAI).

Other things like rules will have to be looked at. Are the squads going to be set during Transfer windows (no movement between senior and b squad), or is there going to allowence for players. Dfferent countries handle it in different ways.

Did A Championship first teams have to finish in the top 3 to qualify for the promotion playoff? The A Championship did have a promotion mechanism. Something similar to that is one possible solution.

Originally Posted by sadloserkid

Kildare could have dropped into the A Championship if they'd been so inclined, no? I really enjoyed it as a competition but let's not pretend it was a silver bullet. It's long enough ago now too that it's of negligible relevance to the freshly mooted Tier 3. Watching Limerick in places like Tullamore and whatever little village Carlow played in (Balon?) was fun though.

Show of hands lads, do we think we'll actually have a Tier 3 next season? I'd be leaning toward 'no' unfortunately.

You are right. It is not a silver bullet. It is however a level that can bridge the gap from U19 to senior level. If clubs can build and attain a First Division licence, similar-ish to the A Championship promotion mechanism, let play-off and see if they are good enough.

**pineapple stu** · 09/06/2022, 5:25 PM

Originally Posted by legendz

A pyramid sounds great but does it lead to a repeat of the 3 clubs in Galway situation?

The lack of a pyramid caused the three Galway club situation in the first place. Salthill or Mervue finished bottom of the First every year but every year there was no relegation.

Originally Posted by sadloserkid

Show of hands lads, do we think we'll actually have a Tier 3 next season? I'd be leaning toward 'no' unfortunately.

I don't see how it's remotely possible at this stage, unless it's almost all B teams (which would defeat the point)

The only interested side so far seem likely to skip into the First Division

**legendz** · 09/06/2022, 5:56 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The lack of a pyramid caused the three Galway club situation in the first place. Salthill or Mervue finished bottom of the First every year but every year there was no relegation.

Allowing clubs from an area that already had a LoI club caused the problem too. The youth leagues have learned from that so far.

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I don't see how it's remotely possible at this stage, unless it's almost all B teams (which would defeat the point)

The only interested side so far seem likely to skip into the First Division

Cavan/Monaghan FC, Klub Kildare FC and Carlow Kilkenny FC are at U17 level. They are 2 to 3 years away from making a decision on whether they want to step up to senior or remain as they are.
A third tier shouldn't necessarily be dependent on new entities joining. If enough LoI clubs want a reserve league, it should be reason enough. 8 teams is the minimum to get up and running.

**pineapple stu** · 09/06/2022, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by legendz

Allowing clubs from an area that already had a LoI club caused the problem too.

Yep - another argument in favour of a proper pyramid.

Would Salthill/Mervue have been promoted in the first place if they'd have to do it on the pitch rather than asking nicely?

**sadloserkid** · 09/06/2022, 6:05 PM

There's two teams from Limerick playing underage at the moment. A special case perhaps but probably one more than is strictly needed for the area.

**legendz** · 10/06/2022, 7:47 AM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Yep - another argument in favour of a proper pyramid.

Would Salthill/Mervue have been promoted in the first place if they'd have to do it on the pitch rather than asking nicely?

Are any senior league clubs seeking to join the League of Ireland?

Originally Posted by sadloserkid

There's two teams from Limerick playing underage at the moment. A special case perhaps but probably one more than is strictly needed for the area.

A special case alright. Is Pat O'Sullivan still determined to get Limerick FC back into the league and is it a realistic possibility?

**pineapple stu** · 10/06/2022, 8:25 AM

Originally Posted by legendz

Are any senior league clubs seeking to join the League of Ireland?

Not sure what your point is?

Clubs shouldn't ask to join the LoI. They should be striving to do so on the pitch. Like in pretty much every other league in Europe.

**legendz** · 10/06/2022, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Not sure what your point is?

Clubs shouldn't ask to join the LoI. They should be striving to do so on the pitch. Like in pretty much every other league in Europe.

Is there a successful club in the senior leagues who want to join the League of Ireland?

**sbgawa** · 10/06/2022, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by legendz

Is there a successful club in the senior leagues who want to join the League of Ireland?

St Francis applied to join the first division recently.
Bluebell have been mooted also.
Id imagine St Kevins might throw their hat in the ring so they can ring fence their kids rather than sharing compo with bohs.
All Dublin however which isn't ideal. I dont have much expertise outside the pale

**Kiki Balboa** · 10/06/2022, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by sbgawa

St Francis applied to join the first division recently.
Bluebell have been mooted also.
Id imagine St Kevins might throw their hat in the ring so they can ring fence their kids rather than sharing compo with bohs.
All Dublin however which isn't ideal. I dont have much expertise outside the pale

Bluebell and St. Francis is West-Dublin right? Peamount in the womens too. Is there a feeling that the area of the city/county is not represented? Like do people in Blanchardstown is big population center. Do they have a team?

I also would guess St. Kevins Boys too as they have a huge reputation and set up (that might really hurt Bohs as a club though).

**sadloserkid** · 10/06/2022, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by legendz

A special case alright. Is Pat O'Sullivan still determined to get Limerick FC back into the league and is it a realistic possibility?

My feeling is that the answer to both those questions is a fairly emphatic no but my finger is a very long way from the proverbial pulse.

**culloty82** · 10/06/2022, 12:20 PM

The Welsh pyramid seems a good model to emulate, minimising expense but maximises local derbies through regionalisation below the Premier:

https://i.imgur.com/MjazSti_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

**EatYerGreens** · 10/06/2022, 1:29 PM

Does anyone else whince everytime they see the spellng of 'Klub' Kildare ?

**legendz** · 10/06/2022, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by sbgawa

St Francis applied to join the first division recently.
Bluebell have been mooted also.
Id imagine St Kevins might throw their hat in the ring so they can ring fence their kids rather than sharing compo with bohs.
All Dublin however which isn't ideal. I dont have much expertise outside the pale

Are there enough clubs in Dublin already? Bohs, Shels, Pat's and Rovers, UCD also. Not to be dividing the potential supporter base any further.
The only exception and case to make is if Fingal County and Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown County see the merit in a team.
Sporting Fingal of course have come and gone. Is Bray now the representative of Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown after the merger with Cabinteely?

**WeAreRovers** · 10/06/2022, 2:26 PM

UCD are the DLR LOI club.

**sbgawa** · 10/06/2022, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Does anyone else whince everytime they see the spellng of 'Klub' Kildare ?

Yes it definitely grinds my gears

**legendz** · 10/06/2022, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by culloty82

The Welsh pyramid seems a good model to emulate, minimising expense but maximises local derbies through regionalisation below the Premier:

https://i.imgur.com/MjazSti_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

I like the ideal of a pyramid structure. I just don't see it as realistic. Ruud Dokter made the valid point that a working structure for one country doesn't necessarily work for another.
The Munster Senior League is effectively a Cork Senior League. I don't think any of the other district leagues in Munster could trust a partnership with them. You'd nearly have to have a separate senior league for the rest of Munster.
Is the Leinster League linked to all the district leagues?
Connaught is without a senior league? Ulster has a bit of a senior league.
It'll be difficult to get all these components rowing in the same direction. The internal politics has some big fish in a small pond, who will not budge and will be obstructive to suit their own interests.
A third tier can circumvent that political headache. If a region has no LoI representation, let them join. If a club is going well on the park and they are not deemed as likely to have a negative impact on an existing LoI club, let them join as well if they want.
In the old A Championship, I think teams had to finish in the top 3 to get into the promotion playoff. Something similar for the third tier, if it ever becomes a reality, can set a playing standard to complement the licensing criteria.
The bottom of the First Division currently doesn't set a playing standard. If a third tier club can attain a First Division licence and they can beat the last team of the First Division in a play-off, let them up!