2022 Season, Arrivals and Departures

**Jack B** · 14/12/2021, 8:04 PM

Originally Posted by Yossarian

Maybe that�s just another rumour floated around to try to paint O�Donnell as the bad guy.

Not really mate, just something I know happened because I was told it from the horse's mouth. I don't even particularly care about it either way but just saying it happened. Dundalk fans are loving shouting conspiracy while coming out with some borderline stuff themselves.👀

**Nesta99** · 14/12/2021, 8:26 PM

Originally Posted by Yossarian

Dan McDonnell’s article says that O’Donnell is confident that the terms of his contract meant he could give a weeks notice. Seems very short to me but if that turns out to be the case then it’s poor from Pats.

If it turns out not to be the case and Dundalk have to pay compensation then so be it. Either way Dundalk have got the manger they wanted while destabilising one of their rivals.

I didn’t see it reported anywhere that he told Pats players the night of the cup final that he was leaving. Maybe that’s just another rumour floated around to try to paint O’Donnell as the bad guy.

1 week is the statutory notice required from an employee unless longer notice is specified in a contract. In my experience 1 month notice type stuff gets stuck in in a general section that all staff tend to get. I hope SO'D is sure of the lack of a specific clause. If there wasnt one then St Pats will be adding a few bits to future contracts. So I still think there is some general back tracking by Pats fans who were in the know, growing doubt on the outcome of any potential court case. There would need to be compelling evidence of a plot to derail player negotiations etc much in advance (new owners in a little over 2 weeks from seasons end?!) to have a case for compensation and this would be a civil suit type thing rather than a FAI tribunal that would decide disputed player transfer fees. A learning experience for all maybe!

**pineapple stu** · 14/12/2021, 8:34 PM

It should be noted there's no indication a player can give a week's notice and move club. There's a transfer window for a start, and a club holds a player's registration which they could hold. So certainly there is some difference between football and real life.

Transfer window doesn't apply for football managers of course. And not sure if there's a registration to withhold.

**Nesta99** · 14/12/2021, 8:35 PM

Originally Posted by John83

Exactly.

Wasnt that the basis for Jean Marc Bosman's argument? I think there was an exemption made in EU employment law then, freedom of movement and all that, for footballers not being classed as regular employees, but the compromise for clubs was the transfer window system and on the (footballer) employee rights the ability to move for free out of contract et al. It's hazy now and probably evolved plenty since, throw Brexit in and there could be fun and games with UK clubs in the years to come if they bin the Bosman Ruling.

**Nesta99** · 14/12/2021, 8:46 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It should be noted there's no indication a player can give a week's notice and move club. There's a transfer window for a start, and a club holds a player's registration which they could hold. So certainly there is some difference between football and real life.

Transfer window doesn't apply for football managers of course. And not sure if there's a registration to withhold.

Specifically I meant with staff just to be clear. Yup, clubs can and at times should hold players registration (Neale Fenn). Coaching staff could apply statutory law I presume unless they sign away some of that, within legal reason. There's no staff registration for clubs to withhold but there is an argument for such a system! I dont recall who but last weekend it was suggested that there should be a 'transfer' window for managerial signings to discourage the sacking culture in the EPL after a handful of games or with a few to go.

**John83** · 14/12/2021, 8:57 PM

Originally Posted by Nesta99

Wasnt that the basis for Jean Marc Bosman's argument? I think there was an exemption made in EU employment law then, freedom of movement and all that, for footballers not being classed as regular employees, but the compromise for clubs was the transfer window system and on the (footballer) employee rights the ability to move for free out of contract et al. It's hazy now and probably evolved plenty since, throw Brexit in and there could be fun and games with UK clubs in the years to come if they bin the Bosman Ruling.

I find this baffling. Why is football special? The employer retains total control of the employee's ability to earn a living until a generous fee is paid: it's not slavery, Ted, it's a totally different shark!

**Nesta99** · 14/12/2021, 9:41 PM

Originally Posted by John83

I find this baffling. Why is football special? The employer retains total control of the employee's ability to earn a living until a generous fee is paid: it's not slavery, Ted, it's a totally different shark!

This is what was argued, it isnt or shouldnt be. But clubs needed to protect their 'assets' and lobbied hard - arguably protecting key funding of the game before really big TV deals and how the Taylor Report (UK specific but UEFA followed a similar track after Heysel) recommendations on stadia would be funded . Hence the different 'classifications' of employee or exemptions for sports from the rest. Not sure now if it was a broader ruling for pro contracted sports people. When transfer fees grew there was concern about 3rd party ownership and how it could be abused but UEFA and leagues got in quicker to regulate things before the EU could throw another Bosman in to the works - restricting player agents being the fear for elements of the football industry. Football in many ways can be argued as mirroring slavery in terms of buying and selling people, lower end of the game they may not be compensated for this either, the club as an employee can technically negatively effect the players ability to earn, prevent moving by withholding player registrations - associations ended up processing part of registrations to mitigate against this, players unions happened to fight for rights and take on clubs that held players to ransom . It's been a while since doing this in college so as said the nitty gritty is getting vague and some of the above is not all since early to mid 90s on. Not exactly 2022 transfers thread stuff...

**joey B** · 14/12/2021, 11:10 PM

Johnny Kenny linked with Hibs and Celtic,was at the Hibs game tonight apparently,fair play to Sligo having him tied down to a 3 year contract,hopefully they get a good fee if he does move….

**boynemunich** · 15/12/2021, 7:53 AM

Originally Posted by joey B

Johnny Kenny linked with Hibs and Celtic,was at the Hibs game tonight apparently,fair play to Sligo having him tied down to a 3 year contract,hopefully they get a good fee if he does move�.

He should avoid Celtic at all costs given their recent history with youth development. Or if he did sign to loan him back to Sligo until July, an option that Irish teams should try look into more. If Killian Philips ends up going to Crystal Palace I think he'd be better off staying on loan with us for another few months playing a central role in a senior team rather than their u23's.

**2 Year Contract** · 15/12/2021, 8:44 AM

I don’t really get these signings Crystal Palace make for their U23s side. By all means Killian Phillips is an excellent prospect but is he going to play in the Premier League in the next 2/3 years? Very unlikely. Likewise Jake O'Brien who they signed from Cork last year. I’m not sure what's in it for Palace, is it resell value to a Championship/League One club? Can’t imagine even that would be too high

**boynemunich** · 15/12/2021, 8:57 AM

Originally Posted by 2 Year Contract

I don’t really get these signings Crystal Palace make for their U23s side. By all means Killian Phillips is an excellent prospect but is he going to play in the Premier League in the next 2/3 years? Very unlikely. Likewise Jake O'Brien who they signed from Cork last year. I’m not sure what's in it for Palace, is it resell value to a Championship/League One club? Can’t imagine even that would be too high

I agree with you but unfortunately with the resources these teams have they are able to play a numbers game. Simply a case of signing loads of decent young footballers for very little money hoping one or two come good, whether that's for the first team or to sell on. That's all it takes for it to be worthwhile. Can't begrudge any young lad being offered full time football in a premier league set up but the lack of proper competitive football at that grade should mean they should be pushing for a loan asap. William Hondermarck left for Norwich 23's in 2018 I think and he's now in and out of the Barnsley team in the Champ via a loan in league 2. If Killian replicates that I'm sure he'd be delighted.

**passinginterest** · 15/12/2021, 9:02 AM

Originally Posted by boynemunich

I agree with you but unfortunately with the resources these teams have they are able to play a numbers game. Simply a case of signing loads of decent young footballers for very little money hoping one or two come good, whether that's for the first team or to sell on. That's all it takes for it to be worthwhile. Can't begrudge any young lad being offered full time football in a premier league set up but the lack of proper competitive football at that grade should mean they should be pushing for a loan asap. William Hondermarck left for Norwich 23's in 2018 I think and he's now in and out of the Barnsley team in the Champ via a loan in league 2. If Killian replicates that I'm sure he'd be delighted.

Yeah, for a club like Crystal Palace, they've put a huge investment into their academy and have top class facilities. They've moved up the under 23 rankings and to attract top young players they need to stay up there. Signings with senior experience from Ireland immediately improve them massively, Jake O'Brien joined mid season and ended as captain and one of the stand out players. It's a minimal investment for them and if they happen to have a big breakthrough with one out of ten or even fifty it's probably well worth it. Someone like O'Brien, who they've now tied to a decent contract will likely recoup their investment in a few years, even if it's with a move to Championship or League One.

**pineapple stu** · 15/12/2021, 9:07 AM

Originally Posted by 2 Year Contract

I don’t really get these signings Crystal Palace make for their U23s side. By all means Killian Phillips is an excellent prospect but is he going to play in the Premier League in the next 2/3 years? Very unlikely. Likewise Jake O'Brien who they signed from Cork last year. I’m not sure what's in it for Palace, is it resell value to a Championship/League One club? Can’t imagine even that would be too high

I think part of it as well is that even if you know your academy will only generate 2/3 transfer fees per year, those guys still need to be playing as part of a squad of 20 each week. So they're not necessarily signing players to be in the Premier League in the next 2/3 years; they're signing players to support the 2/3 guys in the squad who might actually make it.

**Longfordian** · 15/12/2021, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by joey B

Johnny Kenny linked with Hibs and Celtic,was at the Hibs game tonight apparently,fair play to Sligo having him tied down to a 3 year contract,hopefully they get a good fee if he does move….

€150k release clause apparently. Seems low but I suppose he and his agent had the stronger bargaining position.

**pineapple stu** · 15/12/2021, 10:30 AM

Sam Stanton moves from Dundalk to Raith.

Is there anywhere that keeps a running list of all the ins and outs? (I remember CityTillIDie used to do it here)

**Nesta99** · 15/12/2021, 11:10 AM

So a little more insight to the SO'D contract saga - a new contract was agreed, not signed, but aspects of that new contract were initiated anyway eg change in wage payment 'structure'. Whole lot of shades of grey, if it were to go to sports arbitration the judgement would be along the lines of O'Donnell, maybe via Dundalk FC repaying the difference between 2 contracts if there was an increase in weekly wage. If it were to be trashed out in court it would more depend on the opinion of the judge on implied activation to the contract or not signed, silly to implement it. A sufficiently bruised ego could roll the dice. The length of time new terms were used will guide compensation if there is to be any - 6 weeks salary!?

**Jd2793** · 15/12/2021, 11:22 AM

agree on Philips, theres limited scope to how much he can gain from going to an u23 team at his age imo. Another year in LOI with Drogs or another club with a move to league 1/lower SPL side next winter would be something id think would be more of an advantage for him career wise. Very hard to turn down a PL club though so I fully understand why lads do it.

**joey B** · 15/12/2021, 12:55 PM

Oscar Brennan signs for Bray,seem to be putting together a decent squad…

**pineapple stu** · 15/12/2021, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by Nesta99

So a little more insight to the SO'D contract saga - a new contract was agreed, not signed, but aspects of that new contract were initiated anyway eg change in wage payment 'structure'.

Ooh, that'll make things interesting if true.

I think you don't need to formally sign a new contract for it to be considered in place. If new terms are clearly being followed (eg increased pay) then that could constitute acceptance. Of course Pat's can't just pay SOD more and say "That's a contract" so you'd probably have to refer to some correspondence on the contract discussions - e-mails or something which show that SOD was agreeable to things in principle.

I can't imagine you can get out of it by repaying the excess wage payments. If nothing else, there's the tax that's paid too - but it just doesn't sit right that you can refund a small bit of money to get out of a contract. Plus repaying the excess would imply that the old contract (on the old wage) was renewed, so you haven't really gotten out of things at all. And there's still the question of why SOD resigned from a contract he doesn't think is in place.

To be honest, this is kind of all going the way I figured it'd go initially - there's nothing Pat's can do to stop SOD being appointed, and if there's compensation due, that'll be agreed and sorted because you don't screw a club over at licensing time. And in the meantime, the real intrigue remains Dundalk's squad. It's two weeks ago when I posted their squad as -

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

GK - none
DF - Boyle, Leahy, Cleary, Dummigan
MF - Stanton, Sloggett (but was he not linked with Derry too?), Murray, Kelly
FW - Hoban, Junior

That's assuming the Peak6 foreigners and the guys on the PFAI list are leaving. But since then, Dummigan and Stanton have left. Dan Cleary is linked with a move to Scotland and Derry are talking to Junior. Keith Ward is a solid signing but was presumably down the pecking order at Bohs for a reason this year. Probably a good squad player, but better signings will be hoped for? Interesting times for sure. And I'd say any Pat's fan will be looking for a few more contract announcements for Christmas.

**Nesta99** · 15/12/2021, 1:29 PM

Yeah the legal debate in a court hearing would look more at the validity of a new contract and work from there, but its all or nothing. If Kelleher is as determined as they say there could well need to be a court determination, if the judge isnt fussed on hearing the squabbles of the case they will just refer to CAS. Arbitration is more lets get this to go away - so eg return (the equivalent amount of) money that the former employer are out of pocket, amend yer contracts as they're a tad basic and new employer engage quicker to prevent future acrimony, start now and maybe agree something. Or the clubs could just swallow pride and come to some agreement themselves, be it token or whatever, and probably what will happen when it comes to the bit.

Squad....Dundalk fans have been getting a schooling of recent on patience. It's looking less like S'OD was working behind the scenes for Dundalk before the cup final.